So what possessed Guardian staff member BellaM to intervene in the Isi Leibler thread yesterday with the following:
26 Oct 09, 4:39pm
Some people are dragging this debate waay off topic. The discussion about J Street is fascinating, please stick to it.
“Some people”. If I’m not mistaken, BellaM is referring to the “We’re all Hamas now” crowd that are naturally attracted to ‘Comment is Free’ threads. Here are some examples of the “off topic” posts:
26 Oct 09, 2:40pm
J Street policies are even more extreme than the most radical Israeli leftwing groups. The fighting with Hamas in Gaza, which was endorsed by all Jewish political parties in the Knesset, was criticised by J Street as “counterproductive” and “disproportionate”.
And the rest of the world.
Such a shame Israel has only militant, bloodthirsty chickenhawk warmongers in power, those who call for Arab civilians, women and children, to be butchered and exterminated in their hundreds and in their thousands, be it by boots on the grounds or from chemical weapons from the sky, to appease political expediency and back-slapping in Israel’s protracted ethnic-cleansing land-grab Settlement program.
Such a shame that proportionate and defensive are words that only exist outside of Israel, and that inside Israel those words are only uttered by traitors to the State.
26 Oct 09, 2:43pm
What is unacceptable is the moral equivalency made by J Street between the policies of Israel and Hamas and its difficulty in distinguishing “between who is right and who is wrong”.
I agree with that. I think that Israel is much worse than Hamas. Hamas is not occupaying the territory of other people. Hamas is not starving other people. Hamas is noy laying siege on other people. They have tryed to achieve cease fires with Israel which Israel rejected or broke. Hamas would accept a political solution to the Israeli occupation and agressions. Israel has never had interest in a political fair solution to the problem. Every time that there was a period of calm Israel used it to attack Palestinians. Ophir Paz-Pines, a Labour MK, has said that non-Jews are systematically discriminated against (link bellow). This doesn’t happen in Gaza. Israel imprisions a large number of people against the rules of a democratic state. Hamas does this only in one case and thi might be understandable (see link).
‘Israel has always discriminated against its Arabs’
26 Oct 09, 2:48pm
This is a typical AIPAC apologist reaction. First of all, try to discredit and insult those who do not agree with its policies. As a diaspora Jew I certainly do not support the brutal assault on Gaza, it was revealed in”Haaretz” that this was planned 6 months in advance, and would have gone ahead whatever Hamas did. You demonise Hamas, but it is no worse than the Irgun and Stern Gang, the Jewish terrorist organisations in Palestine in the 1940’s, who committed the massacre of Deir Jassin.
I would remind Mr. Leibler the Israel has been illegally colonising Palestinian land for over 40 years and is in breach of many Security Council Resolutions, international law and the Geneva Convention.
A typical AIPAC claim is that’s Israel’s existence is in danger, threatened by hostile Arab countries. What nonsense! How can home-made Hamas rockets defeat Israel, armed to the teeth and with nuclear weapons? – and have you ever heard of the Arab peace plan of 2002?
Ahmadinejad never said the wanted to wipe Israel off the map, he hopes it will collapse like the Soviet Union, so what nuclear threat?
The present Israeli government is making Israel a pariah state. J Street wants to pressure Israel into ending the occupation and making peace, which is in the best long-term interests of Israel Mr.Leibler want Israel to grab all the land it possibly can, leaving as few Palestinians as possible, which can only lead to endless conflict.
26 Oct 09, 2:51pm
Papalagi, so you support strapping bombs to children’s bodies and then sending them into bussess to massacre other children?
It take it then that you support:
The detention and torture of Palestinians? (As admitted by Shin Bet)
The forcing of civilians to be human shields? (As practiced by the IDF)
26 Oct 09, 3:15pm
I agree totally with Psychobabble’s last paragraph although “few” is something of an understatement when you consider what’s been happening to Gazans for decades.
And it explains why we should be providing the people of Gaza with the means of defending themselves against the maniacs who think that burning children with white phosphorous is acceptable conduct..
26 Oct 09, 3:16pm
Isi Leibler’s allegations are simply despicable. J Street represents the views of a clear majority of American Jews, who are horrified by the appalling behavior of the apartheid regime currently prevalent in Israel. Don’t assume that all Jews think alike, or that even a plurality endorse the rightwing extremism of Leibler and his proto-fascist cohorts. If anyone has betrayed the legacy of Judaism, it is Leibler, Netanyahu and Lieberman.
26 Oct 09, 3:17pm
The official position of Hamas is that Israel should disappear as a state.
The official position of Israel is they have the right to Settle – and through that commit ethnic cleansing – parts of the world that everyone else in the world, including the UN and US, states they have no right to settle. In other words, putting action onto the ground, activity that actually disappears the Palestinian people from their homes.
The words of Hamas are as nothing compared to the action of Israel.
26 Oct 09, 3:26pm
I hardly think that children that are being bombed ona daily basis writing a message to those trying to kill them is anywhere close to teaching your children to worship death and kill other children. But I guess that’s where we’re different.
Israeli children writing a message in a bomb about to be delivered? This is what you find good? And do you know how many children were killed by Israeli bombs against the Lebanon? Do you know how many children were presumably directly targeted by Israeli soldiers and killed? Read Gideon Levy about that. Yes, we are really different.
What you are speaking about Hamas is what Israel has done with the Palestinians a long time ago. Given that Israel’s government has said recently that peace is not possible, I think that Hamas’ pronouncement is understandable. It’s a consequence of Israeli pronouncements and practices. Why don’t you put a link to relevant pronouncements by members of the Israeli government if you want to discuss this question?
26 Oct 09, 3:51pm
A number of comments have asked, in essence, who is worse, Hamas or Israel? As actions count more than words (sticks and stones etc) the answer is simple, the side that’s doing the most killing. Israel is at least one hundred times worse than Hamas. Or are all lives not equal in value?
26 Oct 09, 4:04pm
##, who is worse, Hamas or Israel ..killings?? ..Israel is at least one hundred times worse than Hamas ##
The reply I keep getting whenever I ask is that Hamas ‘ intentions are worse …coincidentally also by a factor of a hundred to one ! 🙂
Interestingly most of the above comments were deleted without trace. I suspect that this has a little something to do with the antisemitic outbursts last week on the Evans and Freedland threads that we exposed.
Word of advice to Georgina, Matt and Brian – if you really want to deal with the problem of antisemitism on ‘Comment is Free’ you can start with permanently banning each of the above posters – a step that you failed to take even after we exposed the antisemitism of the likes of Moron, Berchmans and Arkasha here. Attempting to hide the evidence to cover your backsides ain’t gonna wash with us.