18 replies »

  1. The simplicity of the grave must really anger some of the Israel Haters at CI(F).

    It’s absense of opulence must make their blood boil.

  2. JerusalemMite, my perception of Rabin was that he was a modest person – and if so then the grave is a sincere and fitting reflection of that.

  3. AKUS/JeruslemMite

    It’s a beautiful monument.

    BTW – We’re not all haters of Israel on cif and I’d thank you not to tar us all with the same brush. Some of us may not give the Israeli administration 10 out of ten for wisdom or effectiveness. That doesn’t mean we’re anti-semites either because we know there’s a difference between a nation’s people and the policies of their politicians.

  4. sheffpixie – I have never given the Israeli government 10 out of 10 – but using Rabin’s memory as yet another lead-in to an article to bash Israel, as CiF via Freedman did, is despicable, IMO.

    Rabin was a genuine hero as a soldier, one of the world’s great generals, and a remarkable politician who swallowed his disgust with Arafat in a vain effort to start the reconciliation between Israel and the Palestinians. That is how he should be remembered, IMO, not tied to some self-serving crusade against Israel.

  5. I don’t know AKUS – it seems to me that so many of us are so locked into our own idealogical laagers we no longer hear what the other is actually saying, only what we think they are saying. i despair, I really do.

  6. sheffpixie

    Some of us may not give the Israeli administration 10 out of ten for wisdom or effectiveness.

    I object to your implication that the administration could have had any effect on Mideast peace.

    Nothing Israeli has done or could do would have had much effect on the doctrinaire ethnic and thelogical bigoty with which it is faced and which blocks all peace possibilities.

    That doesn’t mean we’re anti-semites either because we know there’s a difference between a nation’s people and the policies of their politicians.

    Exactly what are you implying? That Israel is not a democrayc? Israel is a democracy and so its government’s policies are generally those of its people.

  7. Guardian Hates Jews

    Exactly what are you implying? That Israel is not a democrayc? Israel is a democracy and so its government’s policies are generally those of its people.

    Let me put it this way – I live in a democracy (imperfect as it is) too, the UK, but I and many others in the country have serious objections to our governments policies on many fronts. So no, I’m not implying anything remotely like you suggest. I am saying that I don’t necessarily agree with Israeli government policy on some fronts.

    As to your objections to my views – that is your prerogative and you are free to think what you like about them.

  8. sheffpixie

    I and many others in the country have serious objections to our governments policies on many fronts.

    The way you state things makes you appear part of an elitist minority anxious to force its views on a jority, and considering yourself morally superior to the democratic majority.

    “Serious objections”? Then if they are sufficiently serious, you should be able to convince the majority, no? If you cannot but insist the government do your bidding anyway, you ae an enemy of democracy.

    I would be arrogant and anti-democratic for an Israeli to take such a stance with respect to the country’s representative government. If you are not Israeli, it’s even worse.

  9. The way you state things makes you appear part of an elitist minority anxious to force its views on a jority, and considering yourself morally superior to the democratic majority.

    I’m sorry you think that. I thought being part of a democracy meant the freedom to have your voice heard and be part of the civic process. I really don’t understand where you’re coming from I’m afraid so i guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

  10. Guardian Hates Jews

    I think I know what sheffpixie means. Despite our “first past the post” electoral system we get governments that not much of the electorate votes for. How can they represent everyone?

    I complained to my MP once concerning the BBC’s coverage of just about anything Israeli. I got the stupidest letter back warbling on about how wonderful people found the BBC in WWII.

    Britain despite the problems it thinks it has with Muslims is of course not facing the threats Israel has always faced that are intractable to reason and decent treatment.

  11. sheffpixie, thanks for dropping by.

    “…so many of us are so locked into our own idealogical laagers we no longer hear what the other is actually saying, ..

    Perhaps but you don’t allow for the fact that, on CiF at least, one of the “other sides” is seldom allowed to say anything at all. The Guardian’s distorted world view is peddled and it is vehemently anti-Israel (and if you want a prime example of people who are locked into what you call an ideological laager, then you need look no further than the CiF Editorial team). Anything which tries to argue with that, however politely and reasoned, either gets deleted or the posters of it banned.

    I would imagine that very few of the people who set Cifwatch up or who contribute here are “locked into” anything. As I perceive them they are merely making sure that both sides of the issues, together with the relevant context so often conveniently omitted on CiF, are presented. Since CiF will rarely allow onto the page anything which threatens its world view, the editors of Cifwatch have set up a forum on which they can speak out against CiF’s anti-Israel bias and the Jew-hatred it seems calculated evoke.

    In spite of the rubbish posted on CiF, very few thinking supporters of Israel believe she is 100% correct in everything she does. This is a device employed by Israel’s detractors when they feel bested in argument.

    There is a huge difference, however, in how those of us who criticise her policies go about making our views known. Unlike the Seth Freedmans and Tony Lermans who are indeed locked into their own ideological laagers of hatred, we don’t publish them as bait for Jew-hating wolves.

  12. Yohoho

    Excellent clarification. In addition I would say that there are forums so hostile that no supporter of Israel would post a syllable of criticism for fear of feeding the ravenous beast.

    The Israeli press should be read by anyone who thinks Israeli governments aren’t criticised.

  13. Hi sheffpixie

    We’re not all haters of Israel on cif and I’d thank you not to tar us all with the same brush.

    I don’t know exactly who are included in “we” but no reasonable reader would accuse all critics of Israel an Israel-hater. The problem is the poisonous athmosphere generated by some of the so called Isrel criticising comments and the tolerance of them by the CIF moderators, sometimes fuelled and supported by CIF’s staff
    Would you consider this as a “criticism” of Israel?
    gipsylad (17 recommendations)
    01 Nov 09, 10:53am (about 1 hour ago)
    So, there they go again, the barking apologists of the racist state of Israel. Lies, half true statements, misinformation, propaganda and to top it all, one more re-writing of history. As usual, the criminals shout “No, don’t hurt me! This is not fair…” as he violently attacks his victims.

    Or this?

    inkedbloke (8 recommendations)
    01 Nov 09, 11:10am (about 1 hour ago)
    To be honest, I don’t really see why they can’t be written of of Jerusalem’s history, after all, doesn’t the book of Kings tell us that the place was once inhabited by a tribe called the Jebusites (Jerusalem was called Jebus then). I believe that once King David had conquered the city, the Israelites forced the Jebusites to become serfs; sauce for the goose and all that.
    It does seem a bit rich for the modern day Isaeli Jews to base their claim to a patch of dirt on ancient books that clearly state what a bunch of thieving toerags their forefathers were – oh sorry, I forgot. God said they could nick it so that’s alright then.

    Some of us may not give the Israeli administration 10 out of ten for wisdom or effectiveness.

    I’m an Israeli and I don’t give even 3 out of ten for wisdom and 2 out of ten for effectiveness. But I criticise the many negative aspects of Israeli life, society, government, policy etc on forums where my criticism may help and not for an obviously very hostile public in a very hostile media like the Guardian.

    That doesn’t mean we’re anti-semites either because we know there’s a difference between a nation’s people and the policies of their politicians.

    Do you read the posts of Moeran, Berchmans, Milessmiles. etc. etc. etc too?

  14. sheffpixie

    This is for you too:

    Ram2009
    01 Nov 09, 1:00pm (about 1 hour ago)
    It is inconceivable that a piece of land could have been promised to a group of Mongols who converted to Judaism, and who did not exist at the time it was allegedly promised. To claim that they changed their ethnicity when they converted to a different religion is beyond belief.

    Nitanyawho will not stop till the area is free of semitic arabs.

  15. Ariadne, your coments make sense, but sheffpixie is still dodging the issue.

    I suspect sheffpixie knows full well the anti-Semitic mantra of “I don’t hate Jews, only the policies of the Israeli government.”

    The policies of the Israeli government are generally representative of the majority both of Israel’s population and of Jews worldwide.

    I don’t buy either sheffpixie’s distinction between the Israeli government and those it democratically represents, nor sheffpixie’s re-formulation of the standard “I-don’t-hate-Jews-only-Israeli-policies.”