Guardian

Comment Macht Frei


I spend a good deal of time analyzing the comment threads on ‘Comment is Free’ with the assistance of the other dedicated volunteers of the CiF Watch team and have seen my fair share of repulsive antisemitic commentary. It seems  however that there are no bounds to the moral depravity of the anti-Israel (or more correctly anti-Jewish) commenters on ‘Comment is Free’ so long as it serves the purpose of beating Israel, as the world Jew, with the proverbial stick.

Check this comment out from the Jimmy Carter thread posted yesterday by a certain Gilles38:

Gilles38

19 Dec 2009, 1:44PM

Israel has no intention of letting Gaza be rebuilt. They, with the acquiescence of the west in general and the United States in particular, are going to let 1.5 million Palestinians suffer indefinitely under increasingly miserable conditions. Wonder what happened to the “Arbeit Macht Frei” sign that disappeared from Auschwitz? The Israelis are going to erect it over the Karni Crossing.

I don’t know about you but I felt physically sick reading this. What Gilles38 was referring to was the theft of the hugely symbolic “Arbeit Macht Frei” sign from outside the Aushwitz death camp a few days ago and it really does take some taking to make a joke out of what happened.

Now here’s something interesting. I thought I’d see what the Vanguard News Network (VNN), a Stormfrontesque type forum, was saying about the theft of the sign.

Lo and behold, of all the mainstream news outlets reporting the story, guess what source the VNN poster below uses – the Guardian!

And if you take a look at the VNN thread, guess where Gilles38 gets his inspiration for his comment posted on CiF.


Or maybe the VNN poster, George Witzgall, was inspired by Gilles38’s comment.

In any case, if you’re wondering why the title for this CiF Watch post is “Comment Macht Frei”, here’s why.


For more on Nazi analogies in “Comment is Free” check out AKUS’s postings on the subject here and here.

37 replies »

  1. Gillies was a stupid provocative and unacceptible post . Any association of Israelis with Nazis is the grossest of hyperboles , horrible and a tactical blunder.

    However you extend this to imply CIF is somehow at ease with Nazi associations yet I have read 200 ?? posts on CIF that associate Muslims with fascists , so they do not single out Israelis as impied.

    Furthermore I know of a Guardian moderator who has stated he will allow a Muslim president to be called a fascist, but not an Israeli one.

  2. Xavier Onassis: ” Furthermore I know of a Guardian moderator who has stated he will allow a Muslim president to be called a fascist, but not an Israeli one.”

    Where did s/he say it? Who is this moderator?

  3. Germolene

    “Where did s/he say it? Who is this moderator?”

    Good one. I did what I am always accusing other folks of doing ..not supplying evidence .I will consult a more together colleague and get back. Feb I think…a guy is what I remember. I jumped the gun as I am always thrown that a site dedicated to exposing bias and injustice seems to miss Islamophobia.

    I note you only ask about the mod..you happy that the word “Islamofascist ” has been used on maybe 200 ??occasions on CIF*? I am not talking of the use as a reference.. but as a means of halting reasonable exchange , as it tars all Muslims as potential fascists.

    There should be no linkage of any faction the the Nazis ..it is always the argumant of no return. This is what Ha aretz practices and it seems a fair policy.

    * This is probably an underestimate. I feel I have complained 200 times.

  4. Jimmuh Cahtuh of the killer rabbit fame, is a befuddled senile old fart who keeps hanging around like a bad smell.The guy is a walking disaster.

  5. Xavier, Well done for complaining about the improper use of Islamofascists and intolerance. I look forward to hearing from you.

  6. Xavier Onassis, what is the definition of “fascist”?

    Here’s one I found at http://www.answers.com/topic/fascism

    “# Fascism

    1. A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
    2. A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government.

    # Oppressive, dictatorial control.”

    And at http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fascism

    fas·cism
    Pronunciation: \ˈfa-ˌshi-zəm also ˈfa-ˌsi-\
    Function: noun
    Etymology: Italian fascismo, from fascio bundle, fasces, group, from Latin fascis bundle & fasces fasces
    Date: 1921

    1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
    2 : a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control

    Now, let us look at the Islamist Hamas government. Their stringent socioeconomic controls leave their people in despair whilst they appropriate aid money and goods to sell back to their people so that they can use the money to buy weapons and bleat that Israel is wilfully starving their people;

    Can you remember as far back as what happened in Gaza post- Cast Lead, when Hamas brutally murdered and maimed iits democratic Fatah opposition?;

    Hamas’ belligerent nationalism is encapsulated in its Charter and its behaviour towards Israeli and Palestinian Christians;

    Hamas is Islamist. Islamism’s political philosophy is fascistic and applicable to them under the terms above.

    There are many other Islamist regimes, notably in Iran and Saudi which are run along similar lines.

    Therefore “Islamofascist” is the appropriate term to describe such regimes and the people they empower.

    Can you name me a Muslim president who presides over a democratic government? Take your time….

  7. Of course CiF is “at ease” (I would say more than “at ease”) with hurling Nazi associations at Israel both above and below the line.

    (Have you ever actually read CiF?)

  8. At first I thought it was a play on Matt Frei. But then I remembered this story and the comments I’d read on Cif. Despicable.

    Are any comments about Israel (read Jews) ever considered by Cif moderators as beyond the pale?

  9. Well, HairShirt, at the risk of being laughed off the face of the earth, I would cite the presidents of Egypt and Pakistan. These countries gp through the forms of democratic behaviour, albeit deeply flawed. It is too much to expect cultures with a deeply-ingrained political philosophy to adopt that of an alien culture without modification and even setbacks. They are both authoritarian regimes, but diverse opinion and a degree of public freedom of speech is tolerated. There are independent voices which are tolerated in both countries. And what about Jordan? [OK, it’s a king and a PM, but the country tries to model its constitution on the basis of constitutional monarchy like in the UK. Brunei is anoth moslem country in which there is a fair degree of personal independence, even though it’s more or less all owned by the king.

    I think we should do everything we can to sencourage those people in Islamic countries of goodwill and separate them from those who will justify any action with reference to any extreme utterance in the Koran or extreme interpretations of it.

  10. Hair shirt

    ” Therefore “Islamofascist” is the appropriate term to describe such regimes and the people they empower. ”

    I disagree strongly with your point and feel the use of the word ” fascist ” is all about reviving memories of WW2 and not at all appropriate in terms of present day threats to the Jewish people.

    None the less I salute the quotation marks around the word, which, for me, takes the sting out of it and I note your politeness.

    Yohoho

    “Of course CiF is “at ease” (I would say more than “at ease”) with hurling Nazi associations at Israel both above and below the line.”

    I saw your conversation with Prezelburg yesterday .. hassling the moderator works. There are a couple hundred posts a day they will miss incidents..you record them for reference.. then ask for them to be removed. If they are not removed record this but please do not make such unprovable allegations . I know I did earlier . 🙂

    Are any comments about Israel (read Jews) ever considered by Cif moderators as beyond the pale

  11. GaryO
    .

    “Are any comments about Israel (read Jews) ever considered by Cif moderators as beyond the pale?”

    Sorry about above misttoook .Criticise CIF …I do all the time.. but the use of such hyperbole is rightly rejected by CIF as obviously OTT.

    A problem with CIF is its contributors constantly sniping at Israel whilst (relatively ) ignoring the way way worse catastrophe we have inflicted on Iraq. This is our inability to confront the truth as to what the f*** we have allowed to happen . However to couch it in terms of anti Semitism is lame. You are suggesting CIF allows Jews to be fair game . This, as I say will be ignored as wild by the mods.

    Germolene.

    I have not got long. I will be deleted soon but just to say thanks. I mentioned the post here by prezelberg who stood up against Islamophobia and I was reminded that I too used to give a damn. 🙂

  12. Xavier I doubt whether you will be deleted from here.

    I think that there is a proper use for the term Islamofascist after reading the entries here and I applaud you for demanding an end to improper use.

  13. Onassis and Germ: the term Islamofascism has been defended by entirely respectable writers; most prominently, I think, by Hitchens in Slate:
    http://www.slate.com/id/2176389/

    I think it would be quite difficult to make a good argument against this; and if anything, the case for talking about Islamofascism has become stronger with the developments in Iran, where the so-called Revolutionary Guards have acquired ever more power.
    There can also be no doubt that if the various jihadist cults had their way and got control of states, they all would set up totalitarian regimes that control absolutely everything and leave no room for any dissent or opposition, and where complete submission to their rule and Islam is the only way to survive.
    This doesn’t go away by calling it differently.

    The 13 people who died recently in Fort Hood died exactly because of this pussyfooting around Muslim sensibilities, though these “sensibilities” apparently don’t include any concern about the fact that untold millions and millions of people have been killed in the name of Islam ever since it was first propagated, and up to this very day. True, Christianity also caused huge bloodbaths in the name of religion, but it also reformed and was able to adapt to modern times. You also conveniently overlook that right from the start, Islam was propagated by someone who would relish slaughtering his vanquished enemies, and right from the very start, Islam provided the ideology for expansion, conquest and empire building.

    When you compare Judaism, Christianity and Islam, Judaism was by far the one that claimed the fewest lives, and it never sought to impose its religion on others. Very different from Christians and Muslims, Jews, for most of their history, just wanted to be able to practice their religion and customs and hold on to their homeland in the Middle East, with Jerusalem as the ancient center of their faith. Have you ever asked yourself why Muslims and Christians coveted Jerusalem, even though they had their own most important holy centers elsewhere? For one reason, and one reason only: because it was holy to the Jews.

  14. You may believe as you wish Xavier Onassis, but the definitions I have for fascism hold true for Islamic regimes across the world.

    How else can one define them?

    You may choose to leave because however sure you may be you will not be able to argue against common sense and evidence but I doubt that you will be deleted.

    Germolene, is Hamas Islamofascist as per the definition provided? If not, how not?

  15. sababa

    .

    “the case for talking about ” Islamofascism ” has become stronger with the developments in Iran”

    I have many times argued that the overuse of WW2 verbiage has long been a weakness in the pro Israeli argument

    The biggest nightmare surrounding fascism was the distinct possibility that European Jewry would die out completely and Hitler had to be fought even at huge risk to the UK ( We also fought to defend our interests in Poland of course… but at least we tried for whatever reason.)

    There is now no chance whatsoever of this being repeated ..given the power differentials between a state of the art ,immeasurably impregnable Israel ..and a backward third world Iran with a history of non (direct) attack hundreds of year old.. but we still have fascist this… fascist that.

    You cannot cry foul when Israelis are compared to fascists only to applaud when Iranians are similarly insulted.

  16. Sababa

    Fascists (in the 20th. century) were statists who wished to form a secular utopia based on ethnic myth .

    Now the word Fascist is used without any agreed definition and is best avoided as it is easy to fall into the trap of projecting the actions of an individual, or small, none representative group, onto a majority.

    It is clear that in Israel Palestine there are groups who stretch both religious and nationalist demands to the limit, distorting their religious traditions beyond acceptable limits.

    Neither represent main stream Jewish or Muslim thinking. They come to promience in all these discussions because of the level of violence they employ or support.

    They have been enabled to come to the fore, to dominate discussion and present quite false pictures of the beliefs and aspirations of the majority in their communities.

    By claiming that the beliefs and actions of a few extremists represent all Muslims you invite the counter accusation that the hilltop youths represent Judaism and all the people of Israel.

    Any extreme ideology the allows for the dismissal of human suffering has to be questioned.

    Leni

  17. Hairshirt: You have certainly convinced me about Hamas: there is nothing good to be said about them unless you admire fundamentalists.

    Since I read your definition I have been reading the way that they behave toward the citizens of Gaza and with Fatah, who are their brothers (actually brothers in some cases) and I find it very disturbing. Their heartless cruelty is fascistic by all definitions.

    I don’t think that this is a description of all Muslims -as Leni warns us – and I don’t believe that this is what you meant either.

  18. Leni et al, the arguments against using the concept of Islamofascism you bring boil down to saying: it’s not nice, it’s not pc/politically correct, and then there is of course the implicit “threat”: anyone who wants to associate anything to do with Islam with fascism/totalitarianism risks that also Jewish groups will be labeled thusly. Well, how about some facts from the real world?

    As far as I can see, the concept of fascism and totalitarianism come from political science. While there are all sorts of debates what the exact definitions should be, the bottom line is that fascism describes an ideology where the individual doesn’t count for anything, only the collective counts for how it serves the purposes of the state. Totalitarianism focuses more on the all-encompassing control of the regime/state.

    Again, as far as I can see, Muslims, yes, the majority of Muslims, are reluctant to see a separation between mosque and state, because Islam has always claimed to provide not just a system of spiritual belief that can give the individual guidance about how to live his/her life, but has also insisted on providing laws that govern social relations and define how an Islamic society should be ruled.

    Now, if you look at Islamic states nowadays, that’s how they are still run: many have Sharia law, quite a few take it rather literally and impose barbaric medieval punishments, and in no Islamic state minorities of other faiths flourish; women have to bury themselves under piles of clothing and are severely restricted in what they can do by themselves etc. etc.

    But even this is usually not described as Islamofascism, even though a number of Islamic regimes would easily qualify at least as totalitarian states. However, once you add into the mix the idea that Islamic rule needs to be established and spread by jihad, and that an individual’s highest aspiration is to die as martyr in jihad, you have basically a fascist ideology. If you follow the news from Gaza, you will see the concept at work: Hamas cares zilch about the welfare of Gazans, what counts for them is to hold on to power, keep the purity of their “resistance” ideology, divert as much as they can for arms and explosives, and to provide for their fighters and supporters, and to impose Islamic norms on society: women have to be completely dressed on the beach, aren’t allowed to giggle in public, can’t ride on scooters etc. etc.

    So, except for complaining how not at all nice it is to associate certain forms of political Islam with fascism or totalitarianism, I don’t think you can make any substantive argument to show that a number of Islamic regimes and groups don’t qualify for many of the crucial elements that make up the definition of fascism and/or totalitarianism. And if you’re uncomfortable with that because you view Islam primarily as a religion, you have to ask yourself how come that quite obviously, there are many millions of Muslims who want an Islamic state, with Islamic law, and an Islamic ruler, and how come that this is also very much what the founder of Islam seems to have had in mind.

  19. Sababa

    I do not defend the brutality of Hamas , I do not defend their use of rockets against S Israel – in fact there are very few instances of violence I would defend. I do not defend the use of violence as a means of state repression of a people or violence emanating from religiotribal systems.

    You have to get beyond thinking that I.m lamely saying that criticism is ‘not very nice’ Criticism is often necessary – if we stay silent we can be seen to condone.

    I follow the news from Gaza – when it is available – i follow the news from many places around the world. Much of it recounts tales of cruelty and repression.

    I do not accept claims that any one socioreligious system is responsible for all the horrors any more than I accept that any one system is a model of perfection and humanity. We have yet to devise a system which does not allow the extremes of bad human behaviour to rise to the surface like bubbles in a still pond.

    Of the many systems which rule parts of the world just looking at the three Abrahamics surely teaches us that all are capable of producing extremists who use these beliefs to justify violence of the most horrific kind. All, equally, have produced peacemakers and millions who simply want to follow theirfaith, their traditions and to live at peace with their neighbours.

    Leni

  20. sababa

    ” Hamas cares zilch about the welfare of Gazans, what counts for them is to hold on to power, keep the purity of their “resistance” ideology, ”

    What counts is that they are holed up in reinforced basements hiding from an astonishingly brilliant and committed force trying to kill them. You make it sound as if they are able to debate politics … listening to reasoned arguments in careful , weighted discussions. Then back to the club …hotel ..expenses.

    ” I would like to propose an amendment to the bill, Mr Speaker.” Give us a break.

  21. Sorry, Leni, your “all, equally” simply flies in the face of historical fact. Throughout much of their history, Jews were a persecuted minority often threatened by extinction; while Christianity and Islam built empires killing and subjugating untold millions. Christianity began to abandon its imperial ambitions in the late Middle Ages, while Islam to this day tries to hold on to its claims on “Muslim lands” where minorities are condemned to second-class status. The security measures at airports and many other places that we all have to endure, and that of course cost the world economy a fortune, are due to one reason, and one reason only: Islamist/jihadist terrorism. And keep in mind, it’s the terrorists themselves who claim Islam as guiding them and their aims, and as far as I know, there hasn’t yet been a single demonstration against that which would compare with the Muslim outrage seen when the Danish cartoons were published. Similarly, the whole Muslim world was recently huffing and puffing about the Swiss minarett ban, and while they were busy condemning Swiss intolerance, hundreds of Muslims were killed by jihadists. But well, no point in getting upset about that: it happens almost every day, so it’s much more interesting to focus on what the unbelievers are up to.

    In contrast to the widespread Muslim silence about Islamist terrorism, when recently a few Jewish extremists set fire to a mosque on the Westbank, there was no end to the condemnations of this act from Israelis. For how that was received, I recommend you check out this post:

    http://yaacovlozowick.blogspot.com/2009/12/good-neighbors.html

  22. Sababa

    It is only when a socioreligious system holds political power that its propensity for violence can be fully expressed.
    L

  23. Sababa

    I saw the condemnation of the fire setting in the mosque. Many Muslims condemn Muslim violence .

    The thing I find most repugnant are attempts to misuse psychology to castigate whole societies as in some ways mentally afflicted – I have seen these tactics used against Israel and Palestine. There is far too much preudo intellectualising in this debate – as means to demonise or distract.

    The actual causes of racism are not fuly understood – the ability to dehumanise the enemy has been scrutinised by many – conclusions are not definitive but most point towards the need to protect self image (we are the good guys) and to unite populations in times of perceived or real danger. Is it possible to dehumanise other without dehumanising self?

    Leni

  24. Xavier Onassis – reading your comments here and on other threads, you give the ovewhelming impression that you are exceptionally keen to play down anything anti-Jewish or anti-Israeli. You inform us which comments are ok and which not, you downplay the military threats which Israel faces, you define the opinions of others as hyperbole, and so on.
    All this gives the impression of someone very keen to dismiss the feelings, opinions and experiences of others as a somewhat hysterical and over the top reactions to matters of mere triviality. Now why exactly would you be keen to do that? I do wonder if you realise exactly how condescending and downright patronising that is, and whether you relate to other ethnic groups in the same manner.

  25. Leni, all the kumbaya doesn’t change the fact that the most influential Hamas clerics will spout venom about Jews, as does the movement’s charter — it’s not a fringe phenomenon, it’s mainstream for Hamas; same is true for the Muslim Brotherhood. Some time ago, Anne Applebaum had a very interesting article about what is taught in Saudi schoolbooks; and just a few weeks ago, I read some interesting pieces in the Christian Science Monitor about what is taught in Pakistani madrassas. In other words, millions of Muslim kids are taught to hate and look down on non-Muslims. That is a fact, which you can check if you want. It’s a fact that is occasionally reported in the mainstream media, but most of the time, it’s something that is ignored, exactly because there are so many people like you who prefer not to face these facts and their implications, but instead wring their hands and express their concern about not to hurt the feelings of those who teach hate. So go on with your equivalence mantra: there are extremists everywhere, all religions equally etc. etc. Sure, not all Muslims are terrorists, but it just so happens that all the terrorist outrages of our time are committed by Muslim terrorists.
    It seems your primary concern about this is how to explain this fact without hurting the feelings of Muslims who don’t express particularly much hurt about the fact that these terrorists claim to act in the service of their religion.

  26. Israelinurse

    ” I do wonder if you realise exactly how condescending and downright patronising that is, ”

    I think this is a jolly good point. Well said.

    ” and whether you relate to other ethnic groups in the same manner.”

    You studied nursing. I bet you were excellent. I studied anti Discrimination I was the flippin class swot.

  27. Sababa

    Nowt Kumbaya about me. I am not trying to save the feelings of anybody – particularly those of militant and murderous terrorists.

    listing the various crimes, educational nonsense etc. of various muslim groups around the world does not mean that all Palestinians support them or the ideology they teach. There is a very strong secular movement in Pakistan. There are also Druze and Christian Palestinians. Do the majority of Palestinians /Muslims support the internal repression of the Gazan people?

    Do you , for example, suport the interpretation of Jewish scriptures and teachers spouted by the hilltop youths and their rabbis? Do I support the rantings of Ugandan Christians who call for witch hunts? No and No are the answers .

    sidelining opinions which differ from yours by calling them Kumbaya or appeasing is to avoid the evidence on which I have formed these opinions.

    L

  28. Sababa: It seems your primary concern about this is how to explain this fact without hurting the feelings of Muslims who don’t express particularly much hurt about the fact that these terrorists claim to act in the service of their religion.

    This may be well illustrated by the behaviour of history teachers in the UK in the recent past who neglect to teach children about key events in the world’s history because they don’t know how to present them in a fashion that won’t hurt the feelings of children in the class. People are not learning about the Crusades, the Slave trade, the Holocaust, the Spanish Inquisition because of the teachers’ lack of honesty and skill in a multi-cultural society.

  29. What counts is that they are holed up in reinforced basements
    I think our friend who borrowed a Greek name is confusing Nasrullah with Hamas. He is also revealing his cif identity more and more clearly with every posting.

    Trolls, anyone?

  30. Xavier – in that case I trust that you would not dismiss the concerns of a Black/Gay/Roma person as ‘hyperbole’…so what’s the difference?

  31. With regard to the nauseating comment by Gilles38:

    …Wonder what happened to the “Arbeit Macht Frei” sign that disappeared from Auschwitz? The Israelis are going to erect it over the Karni Crossing.

    notice two other things.

    One is, that this is the only comment Gillies38 has ever made on CiF. I suspect he is either a retread of Gilliesxx reposting under another name to get around being banned in a previous incarnation, the other is that although his/her comment was deleted, s/he has not been banned, whereas a similar comment directed at Moslems would almost certainly have had the copster banned.

  32. With regard to the nauseating comment by Gilles38:

    …Wonder what happened to the “Arbeit Macht Frei” sign that disappeared from Auschwitz? The Israelis are going to erect it over the Karni Crossing.

    notice two other things.

    One is, that this is the only comment Gillies38 has ever made on CiF. I suspect he is either a retread of Gilliesxx reposting under another name to get around being banned in a previous incarnation, the other is that although his/her comment was deleted, s/he has not been banned, whereas a similar comment directed at Moslems would almost certainly have had the poster banned.

  33. Leni, your magic formula that not “all” Palestinians, Muslims, whatever support X or Y doesn’t do the trick. I was talking about mainstream teachings and views in Muslim societies; and mainstream means: a majority, but not all. Is that so difficult to grasp?
    And no, I don’t support any of the views of the hilltop youth, but then, they really are a fringe group, meaning, a tiny teeny minority.

    But go on looking for equivalence, if that’s what makes you happy; in the meantime, the fact of the matter is that in the Middle East, antisemitic cartoons are found regularly in mainstream newspapers, there are antisemitic TV shows to entertain the masses, millions of kids are taught to hate Jews, and so on and so forth — but OK, it’s a reality you don’t want to acknowledge, even though you could easily educate yourself about it with a little bit of googling.
    I just wonder what in your mind is so particularly ethical about this stance. Sure, all sorts of bad things are done by all sorts of bad people in all sorts of places, but by refusing to distinguish between fringe groups doing bad things and mainstream groups doing bad things, your only achievement is to have the satisfaction of saying: well, I spoke out against all sorts of bad things, and whether one bad thing cost scores of people their lives or whether another bad thing caused offence to just one individual, it didn’t matter for me — my indignation and protest was directed equally against both bad things.

  34. “I have read 200 ?? posts on CIF that associate Muslims with fascists”

    But you must admit that such association was created by Muslims themselves. From Sayid Q’tub who sported the Hitler mustache to show his admiration to Adolf while he studied in Berlin in the 30s, to the Mufti of Jerusalem who led an SS Division, to Hamas, Al Queda, to the Algerian FIS (whom other Algerian Muslims named as “Islamofascists hence the origin of the term).

    Then lets take a look at Hamas, Hezbollah with their Zieg Heil salutes, Saddam and his mustache cult aka the BAATH (Arab Socialist National Party) and Al Quds and the Bassij.

    Oh yes and the UK fanatics with their signs saying “Democracy is Satan”, “God Bless Hitler” and “Europe get ready for the real Holocaust”.

    I think not calling them fascist may actually insult them as they re trying so hard to make it clear to everyone that they are fascists.

    So to say that this is equivalent to calling Israelis Nazis is not only ignorant (though willfully ignorant) but also something else.

    Cheers

    A.

  35. “…What counts is that they are holed up in reinforced basements hiding from an astonishingly brilliant and committed force trying to kill them. You make it sound as if they are able to debate politics … listening to reasoned arguments in careful , weighted discussions. Then back to the club …hotel ..expenses….”

    My God, what a typically Berchmanesque argument, even down to the praise of IDF!

    Berchmans, WHY are the Hamas LEADERS holed up in basements (while their people are left to die or are deliberately used as human shields to make propaganda capital for fools like you who believe them?

    Would they NEED to be holed up in basements if they had not been trying to kill Jews in southern Israel and sending in suicide murderers to kill Israelis elsewhere and had instead engaged in negotiations for a lasting peace in good faith?

    What on earth makes you believe that this shower WOULD “debate politics”, as you put it, even if they were given the chance? READ THEIR CHARTER. They argue that even contemplating peaceful coexistence with Israel is a waste of time and so they deny their people the chance of a peaceful future and prepare their own children to die.

    What part of their death wish do you not understand and why are you still trying to make excuses for them?

  36. Almost all of Northern Israel was holed up in basements while the Left adored Hezbollah was raining katyusas upon them in 2006.

    Funny none came up marching like the SS with Zieg Heil salutes or went on to behead and mutilate their political opponents. Though they did curse Olmerde for being a push over twat in handling this whole affair, more worried about what CNN thought than what people in the basements.