Seth Freedman’s latest promotion of Combatants for Peace (astute readers will remember that he’s been there before) had the rather predictable effect of falling on deaf CiF ears; so much so that Freedman himself felt obliged in several instances to leap in and try to save the day.
What motivated Freedman’s attempts to rescue his own thread from the swamps of antisemitic and racist discourse? Well for a start the anti-Zionists and one-staters were out in force.
10 Jan 2010, 12:09PM
I wonder if the Israelis joining the protests though, would want the Palestinians as neighbours.
This would involve the dismantling of zionism and end the state of Israel as a Jewish state.
10 Jan 2010, 12:23PM
I see no contradiction between this kind of peaceful protest and moving gently, gently, towards a 2-state solution.
– or –
A 2 state or apartheid solution? Palestinian refugees are still waiting in their refugee camps and squalor and in the meantime Israel invites as many Jews as it can possibly stuff into the land it has ‘acquired’ to forestall any claims by the refugees.
Zionism – whether it’s the settlers or the ‘peace’ lobby, wants to cement this state of affairs and this is an outrage.
10 Jan 2010, 12:33PM
And yes, zionism is an evil ideology.
10 Jan 2010, 12:37PM
actually their answer would be to stay in Israel, something to do with freedom, human rights and standards of living…. trivial to you but important to them.
No – it is because it is their home and they are not leaving.
They don’t believe the state of Israel should exist because like me, they believe that zionism is an evil ideology.
10 Jan 2010, 12:44PM
Full citizenship and equal rights for Palestinians in a single state is now the only way foreward for Israel. It cannot hope to continue indefinitely this state of affairs, it’s small country in the Middle East which isn’t European or American and should accept that and learn to live in peace with it’s own people, whatever their beliefs or ethnicity and in peace with it’s neighbours. ONly then will it have any chance of long term survival.
10 Jan 2010, 1:08PM
I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again: ultimately there is absolutely no rational reason for there to be a state with the name of Israel.
Surely it’s time to negotiate a clean slate. It’s time to evolve.
It’s time for a new 21st century democratic state for everybody to live in.
10 Jan 2010, 1:12PM
….Zionism is “evil” and that Israelis campaigning peacefully in favour of Palestinian rights are not to be trusted an inch……
Facts have proven this for decades.
10 Jan 2010, 1:38PM
Zionism is the root cause of this conflict.
An exclusive colonial-settler state founded on a religious and ethnic orthodoxy supported unconditionally by the USA.
10 Jan 2010, 1:42PM
Although what I am about to say is not directly related to the discussion above, but I think it has an indirect relationship. I feel that the two-states solution is a failing solution. It will be a recipe for continuous war. What will succeed, I believe, is a ONE STATE for both Arabs and Jews. This one state should:
1. Reflect all the citizens of the state
2. Be futuristic, in the sense that it only looks to the future of its citizens through involving those citizens in a nation-building process based on justice and knowledge.
If the West and especially America is honest and sincere in its Democracy values, then a one state in the land of Palestine is the solution. If the world supports the establishment of this one state and provides the necessary means of successful existence then it will be an example to the whole Arab and Muslim region. All closed-minded ideologies will gradually disappear and democracy will be sought by the other Arab nations.
The region now does not have a leading state in democracy that is indeed based on genuine values and intentions. The One-State of Palestine or Isratine, or Palesrael (call it what you want) is the only way forward.
10 Jan 2010, 1:53PM
There will be no independent viable Palestinian state with E. Jerusalem as its capital since this does not fit the zionist project to control the resources of Palestine.
10 Jan 2010, 1:58PM
….There will be no independent viable Palestinian state with E. Jerusalem as its capital since this does not fit the zionist project to control the resources of Palestine…..
That’s what the beyond Ueberheblichkeit super arrogant zionists, settlers, right wing extremists, orthodox jews a.s.o. think.
The international community thinks the opposite.
10 Jan 2010, 2:38PM
No, you’re right, it takes two to tango, raymond: Israel is waiting on a partner that can dance…
Indeed PeterBracken, which is why Israel prefers to tango with the United States and sign their peace deals with the Americans. One day Israel is going to have to talk to ther Palestinians and if it refuses then it will then have to talk to it’s Arab neighbours who, no matter will always remain surrounding Israel.
Power and regional domination are cyclic and eventually even Israel will weaken and lose the will to continue its pointless aggression against the Palestinians and theft of their land. In truth Israel has nothing to offer the west except involvement in more of their “holy wars” against the Muslims, which like all wars are stupid, hopeless and lost, no matter who thinks they won.
Israel is losing, even has lost the intellectual argument for their continued aggression and land theft and it is only a matter of time before our spineless politicians realise that like White South Africa and Rhodesia they are backing losers. So better to make peace and accept a one state solution encompassing all the people of Israel, Gaza and the West Bank now.
Employers of Nazi and/or apartheid analogy were also at work on this thread.
10 Jan 2010, 12:54PM
……….The problem Seth is that the agenda setters, the leaders of Zionism and of Israel have a vision for the Jewish state which says that it must be overwhelmingly made up of Jews (80%+) and that it should encompass as much of the Land of Israel as possible………
This makes clear that Israel is a neo-colonial Apartheid state, and not a western style democracy as pretended.
10 Jan 2010, 1:25PM
Any ideology which gives rights to a person on the other side of the globe (purely because of their religion) over and above those of someone indigenous to the area is unsavoury to say the least.
“If the state of Israel aspires to perceive itself as a democracy,
it should abandon once and for all, any legal and ideological
foundation of religious, ethnic, and demographic discrimination.
The state of Israel should strive to become the state of all its citizens.
We call for the annulment of all laws that make Israel an apartheid
state, including the Jewish law of return in its present form”
(Israeli artists’ Declaration, 2002).
Good article Seth, nice to hear about one of the many peace organisations operating to resolve the I/P conflict. CFP, ICAHD, Adalah, Sabeel etc rarely get the attention they deserve. Because it doesn’t fit the narrative of Palestinian violence versus Israel ‘defending’ herself, or indeed vice a versa.
10 Jan 2010, 2:12PM
Seth writes that Israel is turning into (or will turn) into a bi-national state. i do not agree: it will become an apartheid state.
I wish i could defend my country, but I cannot. the shock of the second intififada has turned too many of us into rabid Arab-eaters where the most humane solution for them is to kick all Arabs to Jordan and the less human is simply to kill them all.
10 Jan 2010, 2:36PM
The best way to help the Palestinians is to allow them to return to their homes which have been forcibly taken through the actions of Jews/Zionists over the past several decades.
This is in accordance to International Law and is their human rights to return to their homes. They should then be given Israeli passports and be allowed to vote.
This reasonable and humane action will not happen as the Western Jews wish to ethnic cleanse the land of Palestine of non-Jews and wipe the name of Palestine from the map.
It is high time that the West stopped held being ransom to the Holocaust as a means of making them support another Holocaust onthe Palestinians. Hitler and the aims of the Israeli state are identical. Germans for the Aryan race just as Israel for the Jewish race.
10 Jan 2010, 2:58PM
When someone uses the phrase “international community” in the context of Palestine they actually only refer to the USA which unconditionally supports Israel in every manner possible.
I agree. It is the stance of US that matters, and that has always been the case particularly since 1967. The one vote, the one country that matters is the US. Hence, a US veto, or abstention (the act of a coward), serves to strengthen Israel and encourage it perpetrate Zionist policies of colonialism, racism and conquest. This power system, existed also with Apartheid South Africa, it was the stance of US that mattered, nothing else. As long as godfather protects, funds, subsidizes than all else simply does not matter.
Then there was this flippant downplay of the terrorist threats faced by Israelis:
10 Jan 2010, 3:45PM
….You conveniently forget to mention the 7,000 rockets ….
The Palestine freedomfighters launched fire crackers in need of attention for the inhumane conditions Israel created.
It resulted in 13 Israeli dead against 1300 Palestine victims.
10 Jan 2010, 4:13PM
10 Jan 2010, 4:05PM
Seth, I agree that throwing rocks at the IDF is not going to get the Palestinians anywhere fast
But it isn’t just throwing rocks. Only recently, Palestinians were dancing in the streets and handing out sweets when 15 young Jews were murdered by a terrorist……
Did not we ( attacked and/or occupied countries ) show joy when Germans were hit in 40-45??
Yes, we did.
Increasingly, we see on CiF revisionist versions of history and denial of the experiences of the Jewish people.
10 Jan 2010, 3:53PM
We can’t expect Jews to endure another three wars of annihilation, suicide bombings, crimes against humanity, rocket bombardments, ethnic cleansing from their homes in Arab states and appropriation of their lands, kidnappings, and murders of their brethren in other parts of the world.
If Jews act like criminals……..
10 Jan 2010, 4:03PM
Interesting how so many people subscribe to this notion that under Islam jews enjoyed a lifestyle not shared by the current rulers of Israel towards Muslims.
and that actually in the past Muslims treated Jews a lot better than the Europeans did.
Yeah funny how the truth gets about. Tell me what happened after the Reconquista in 1492? Or about the pograms in Eastern Europe? Or about the Genocide during WW2? Sure there were problems, but they multiplied in parrallel with the rise of Zionism as the expulsion of Jews from Arab lands reached a crescendo after 1948. Thats not to excuse it, it was a brutal act of revenge – and it suited the Zionists right down to the ground.
10 Jan 2010, 4:29PM
The land they bought only added up to a small percentage of mandatory palestine- I cant remember off hand but 3-4% strikes me as being about right.
Other point- the Zionists often used middlemen (non-jewish) to buy land from people who had been assigned land in a reform of the Ottoman land reform of the mid 19th century. These people who sold land were often absentee landlords living it up in Lebanon, or wherever. The Zionists would then throw the Arabs off the land that they had worked and lived on for generations.
RE- the deplorable Hebron massacre – it didnt happen in a vacum but towards the end of a heated period in Jerusalem, conflict between Zionists and Muslims over religous sites. Rumours spread across Palestine that there had been an attack by Zionists at Al-Aqsa mosque- it was at that point that the massacre happened.
So, what prompted Seth to put on his cape and try to save the day?
10 Jan 2010, 2:30PM
…………he was specifically talking about the way in which demonstrations against the occupation should be conducted in order to have maximum effect on the israeli public, and i think he’s absolutely right in the approach he advocates…….
So jews are telling the Palestinians how to protest???
NOTHING worked for 42 years.
Israeli are arrogant, shameless and ruthless
10 Jan 2010, 2:57PM
frederikk – “So jews are telling the Palestinians how to protest???”
so because i’m jewish i’m not allowed to comment on the inefficacy of the violent protests? that’s a strange approach to take – kind of like saying only black people are allowed to comment on other black people’s behaviour, or only sri lankans can talk about other sri lankans’ actions, etc, etc. i’m sure on reflection you too can see how illogical and ridiculous your comment seems – shame you take such a shoot-from-the-keyboard approach to your pontificating.
“Israeli are arrogant, shameless and ruthless”
genius comment. or rather, not so much genius as embarrassingly racist and generalising. might be time to take a break and go back to your sandpit for a while till you calm down.
Nice one, Seth. And onward and upward he goes…
10 Jan 2010, 3:34PM
frederikk – “That’s 1 example the arrogant jewish attitude”
it’s the way you tell ’em.
here’s a peace offering: ‘k’ – it’s on the house. do with it what you will, my suggestion would be to tack it to the end of your username.
10 Jan 2010, 3:41PM
sexedupdosser – “What you have totally neglected to mention in your article is that had this been a protest attended by mainly Palestinians the occupying army and border police would have descended with deadly high velocity tear gas projectiles and live ammunition even before the protest would have started. I very small amount of research into Bi’lin, Nilin and Sheikh Jarrah would have told you that”
no, only a quick dip into your over-excited mind would have told me that with such alarming conviction. plenty of israelis go to bil’in, ni’lin and sheikh jarrah every week, so your hypothesis falls at the first. plus maintaining that ‘had it been x therefore y would have happened’ is to build an argument on ridiculously shaky foundations – i reported on what i saw, not on what i imagined might have happened if something had been different and certain people had been there and so on and so forth. but feel free to disagree – just don’t expect me to share your specious and speculative views regardless of how vehemently you put them down on the page.
ps ‘deadly high velocity tear gas projectiles’ is a bit of a mouthful, not to mention a bit of a lie. teargas would have sufficed, teargas canisters at a push. the way you write it, you make it sound as though they’re used as part of a shoot to kill policy. they aren’t. yes i know you’ll trot out some random incident to ‘prove’ that they are, but they really aren’t. at least be honest about the clashes – rubber bullets/live ammunition/etc are in one bracket, teargas is in a very different one.
10 Jan 2010, 4:11PM
zionismisevil – “Ok. Point taken. Not all Jews are zionists, so I apologise if I tainted every Jew with this label. It was not meant”
roughly translates as: stable door shuts, horse miles down the road.
your true colours shone through nice and brightly in your pre-apology comments, don’t try and play nice now that you’ve been shown up for what you are.
Seth’s intervention seems to have caused upset in some quarters….
10 Jan 2010, 3:48PM
Is mr. freedman the moderator here?
And then, in addition to Freedman’s Batman, here comes Robin…
10 Jan 2010, 3:23PM
That’s 1 example the arrogant jewish attitude.
Any reason this post is still up while my post addressing it has disappeared?
10 Jan 2010, 3:56PM
@ ZionismIsEvil / WhiteMansPropaganda /ImmenseChipOnShoulder
Why not just go to a racist website where you views are welcome?
Well credit where credit is due, guys? Good on you for challenging these nasty types. The only question I have is why Seth Freedman bothers to write on a forum where these sort of racist comments are practically guaranteed and where reasonable discussion is anything but the norm?
To conclude, take a look at the rather weird turn this thread took at one point with the proposal of a particularly convoluted, if not downright paranoid, theory:
10 Jan 2010, 3:49PM
I’ve noticed a whole bunchof sensible comments ‘moderated’ out and deleted simply for stating a few simple facts. Those zionists (would it be offensive for me to mentions ‘Jews’?) at CIFWatch certainly know how to control the Guardian, eh readers?
It is interesting to see how CIFWatch operate here. They ask for comments to be deleted like they simply didn’t exist in the first place. It’s like their approach to Palestine – just treat it like it didn’t exist, erase all memories and evidence of it.
Anyway, the sort of comments which have been moderated out or simply deleted are:
1. Arabs who have Israeli passports do not believe the state of Israel should exist.
2. Zionism is an evil ideology.
3. Zionism is racism (a simple statement which was passed by the UN).
4. Zionism and the state of Israel would be finished if the Palestinians pushed for equality.
I’ll wait to see how long before this comment is ‘moderated’ out courtesy of CIFWatch.
10 Jan 2010, 3:52PM
Your allegations are very serious but mostly baseless. Try backing them up.
I would debate each and every point i made in that thread posted a short while ago. But CifWatch’s Israeli apologists and self-declared fighters of “Anti-semitism”, are out in force to stifle debate on here, so therefore my post has been removed within minutes of being posted.
Pick one allegation, I challenge you.
Is this really the type of readership to which you aspire to appeal, Seth?