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  1. Zkharya

    As a corollary to your last point, the fact of the matter is that there was no so called occupation of the West Bank and Gaza between 1947 to 1967 . That being the case what was to prevent the Palestinians from declaring their nation state at any time during this period .

    Its a question I have asked time and time again . Ben White was the last recipient of The Question when giving a talk at the offices of Amnesty International. Once he had regained his composure ,he answered by stating that the Palestinians were not about to relinquish their claim to the whole of Palestine and could not be expected to negate their position by agreeing to a two state solution based on 48 Armistice lines.

    Of course that engendered the obvious response from me which was ” How has that position now altered to give rise to the so called 2 state solution demanded by the rest of the world today.

    The answer from him was of course that it hadn’t changed and that only a one state solution would be acceptable to the Palestinians .

    This is the crux of the matter. At best a withdrawl from the West Bank is merely a stepping stone along the way to a single Islamic state from the River to the Sea .

    The original question as to why the Palestinians spurned the opportunity of declaring a nation state between 48 and 67 is the equivalent of a dose of kryptonite to Israels enemies .

    I suggest you use it whenever appropriate and note well the mendacity it elicits

  2. zkharya

    ” for most CIFers, so far as I can see, Israel is, in fact, largely stolen territory.”

    This is simply not right. Above I said “The standard claim here is that CIFFERS are extremists.” I know of no regular on CIF who suggests all of Israel is stolen. The occupied areas …yes ..

  3. ‘I know of no regular on CIF who suggests all of Israel is stolen. ‘

    Then we shall have to agree to disagree.

  4. zkharya

    “Then we shall have to agree to disagree”

    You must know that one of my things on CIF is to try to pin people down as I feel many people try to delegitimise CIF with vague allegations of extremism…however I know a tone of peace when I hear one.You take care.

  5. This from Berchmans

    (April Fools day has come around again it seems):

    “…You must know that one of my things on CIF is to try to pin people down…”

    Really?????????? Well knock me down with a feather Berchmans! Talk about the blind leading the lame!

    Have you tried to pin yourself down lately? It’d be the equivalent of charity beginning at home wouldn’t it?

  6. armaros it is indeed complicated psychologically speaking. I suspect that these women may have little sense of self to begin with and fall easily for the lies peddled them about Islam and what it offers to women.

    They may not be as successful as they want to be in the freer westernised environment

    Masochism may play a part – they may want to be treated as second-class.

    Or they may believe themselves to be (or actually be) in love with a Muslim man and have been told that the only way to keep him is by converting to Islam.

    Islam seems to offer a sense of control and order to women whose lives may be out of control, and it may not dawn on them until much later that the control is not theirs, that it is imposed on them externally;

    Or as in the case of Fahima, they may do it to outrage and stick two fingers up to society or to hurt their families. I know a Jewish woman who converted to Catholicism to get her own back on her mother for remarrying. The woman had been very close to her father who had died years before.