Imagine you’re a British neofascist*

This a guest post by Modernity.


This is going to be difficult, but imagine you are a British neofascist:

“Further, imagine, that you long for the days when you can openly worship Nazism, as your forbears in and around the leadership of the British National Front used to do.

Imagine your frustration, you are a British neofascist and yet you can’t be open about it, you can’t express your admiration for David Irving or visit extreme right-wing Japanese groups without someone finding out.

In short you are in a pickle, you want your odious ideology to succeed but realise that most people would sooner eat their own vomit than join you in the Nazi salute.

Then you have a bright idea. Why not hide the extremes of your neofascist ideology? Why not wear a suit? Why not try to pick on the weakest in society as your heroes from Nazi Germany did, but do it with a twist?

Cunningly, as a devious British neofascist, you would not attack the ultimate target: Jews, directly

No, that wouldn’t work, so you have to think of another scheme.

Who to attack? And who to whip up hatred against? Who to use to build a street army?

Then in a flash it occurs to you, you’ll attack immigrants, but stop, that hasn’t been too successful for the BNP. What else can you do?

Ahh, attack Muslims, but not directly, not whilst wearing your suit.

So you infiltrate a new organisation, you make sure that all your neofascist and neo-Nazi pals are in key positions of power, and eventually take it over.

Still you’re worried, as a devious British neofascist, that your political enemies with see through these tactics, and then it hits you, how to throw them off the scent?

Pretend that you like Jews. Get one of your knuckle headed friends to get an Israeli flag or two. And when you walk around wave it a lot. What a laugh!

Your mates think it is funny, they hate Jews with a passion, but it is a big wind-up and people don’t know how to react, many stop and think, others are fooled and some like your natural opponents in the liberal minded Guardian suddenly think that a bunch of neo-Nazi skinheads have converted to Zionism, how wrong could they be!

All the same, as a British neofascist, you don’t mind if the Guardian takes pot-shots at Jews.

In fact, you think it is funny, that highly educated journalists don’t really understand modern neo-Nazism, letting you have your way. And once you’ve whipped up enough hatred against the Muslims then you can turn to other ethnic minorities, and eventually Jews.

Whilst all this is happening you, as a British neofascist, will have an able ally in the Guardian as they don’t much care for Jews or Israelis either. Plus the fact they haven’t worked out that you can’t stand Jews or liberals, but their gullibility blinds them to the fact that neofascists are frequently dishonest about their motives.

The Guardian types don’t know that you will do anything to get power, even tell fibs. But none of that will matter once you’ve grown from a proto-street army to an organised force, all of that will be too late.

But, as a British neofascist, you thank your lucky stars that the Guardian editorial staff seem to know next to nothing of history, care even less and have their own set of prejudices.

Then you trot off to polish your steel capped-boots, ponder a recruitment campaign at the Guardian, all with a smug grin on your face.”

Imagine that.

Actual Guardian article on the EDL, published on August 21, 2010

Categories: Guardian

Tagged as: , ,

50 replies »

  1. Imagine this: you’re so filled with political correctness, so permeated with media and Guardian leftism (even though you claim not to be so influenced), so unaware of Koranic doctrine instructing believers that Jews are lower than pigs and monkeys and should be killed, Christians should accept a 3rd class citizenship (dhimini status) or be killed, women should have their clitoris cut off, gays should be stoned to death and rape victims (if women) stoned to death, that you attack organizations like the EDL tht are pro Western values, pro Israeli, anti Islamic radicals. No, no one could be that stupid, right?


    I don’t think its being politically correct to wonder why the group clearly seems compromised by neo-Nazi elements, nor is it necessarily being naive to question how committed EDL truly is to promoting Western values. Also, you can be both unapologetically opposed to radical Islam and also be opposed to EDL. Two aren’t mutually exclusive. If you want to defend EDL, fine. Many do. But, its not reasonable to set up this paradigm which suggests that any opposition to the group represents some sort of far-left group think.

  3. we have a group “pro Köln” which agitated at Cologne against a mosque

    the conundrum is that a lot of people felt and probably feel provoked by what the mosque planners are up to but don’t want to get into bed with the too much on the right ones which are on the other hand the most busy organizers.

    How I’d deal with that bind would anything like that be going on in my area I don’t know – on the one hand I object that there are cities where there are parts where one doesn’t like to go because one gets only scowling looks (it wasn’t like that not too long ago, quite the opposite) on the other hand I don’t want to buddy up with unsavouries on the right.

  4. @george You attack organizations like the EDL that are pro western values,pro Israeli,anti Islamic radicals’.

    The EDL is an extreme right wing group,’ they intimidate ENTIRE Muslim communities causing tension and fear.Jews ought to remember that we have a long experiance of being on the receiving end of this kind of bigotry.
    ‘They present a divisive hateful politics that demonises minorities(in their case one particular minority) and damages social cohesion, in a way that is never beneficial for society as a whole,or for Jews in particular.
    When a group called Stop the Islamisation of Europe(SIOE) demonstrated at Harrow Mosque,North London last year, The CST advised the Mosque on stewarding and security before the event.’WE did this because we believe that anti Semitisim and other forms of prejudice are best fought by bringing communities together,not setting them in conflict against eachother’.
    The EDL’s ‘support for Israel is empty and duplitious,it is built on a foundation of Islamophobia and hatred, and should be rejected ENTIRELY.’

  5. “The EDL is an extreme right wing group,”

    I am not sure that is the case. They are a hooligan street group founded upon two main football firms. Fascisms is an ideology not behavior the Left or liberal sensitivities dislike.
    Their success is attracting the BNP who since their ascent into real politics have been losing street credo. The BNP must see them as the greatest threat for recruitment on the street level.

    The EDL also fly gay flags and parade their non white members.
    Are they also conspiring to get the Guardian to attack blacks, gays and Sikhs ?

    I think not. It seems the political balance on the street has been tipped and many groups are blaming Muslims for that. The EDL is recruiting from there. That is where the so called “social cohesion” became an illusion as it no longer exists. The UK is fast descending into a place where politics is played out both on the street and in legislatures. As mainline parties refuse to deal with Islamic fanatics and instead are competing in appeasing them.

    So what we see is the evolution or devolution of the EDL. The Left claims they are nazis and they claim they are anti nazis. The reality is that probably, unlike what they are willing to admit, there is a lot of infiltration going on. It is hard to check memberships when a crowd descends onto a town in masks. Their only saving grace could be attracting enough gays and non whites so that the BNP will give up on infiltrating them.

    From a political perspective it is no different than when Labor and LibDEms were infiltrated by Islamists and other radials, antisemities, Galloway etc….Except that political parties have access to background checks and research data so when they are penetrated by creeps they have less excuses than a beer guzzling street gang recruiting via FB.

    I don’t think their intent is to agitate the Guardian/Islamist crowd against Jews by flying Israeli flags. That is a conspiracy theory.
    They just interpret the Israeli flag as a middle finger to Muslims and identify with Israel as another ‘Villa in the jungle” fighting off Islamization.
    Muslims will claim zionist infiltration in everything they oppose as otherwise they would be out like Nazi antisemites. Knowing the zionist label has some negative connotations in mainstream British discourse, it is their best hope to whitewashing their hate and ultimate agenda of imposing Sharia based “social cohesion”. Their street gangs can be linked back to mosques and clerics just like terrorists in Iraq and Afghanistan or Gaza.
    There is almost nothing happening in confronting the top so the EDL comes out taking on the bottom.

    I don’t think Jews should openly support the EDL as Jews or more specifically, as Zionist Jews flying Israeli flags.

    That would just make matters worse for Jews in the UK.

    If a Jew wants to join the EDL he should do so for being English and not Jewish for that ultimately being an individual decision.

    What needs to be said is that Muslims have started attacking Jews in the UK on the street level as well as the political level.
    They are using Israel as a pretext but in reality it is Islamic Jew hate which is at the core of that. As the Muslim population is getting larger and more radicalized, the antisemitic attacks will continue to mount.

    So for Jews to then come out on the street with Israeli flags confronting Muslims would play into that deceiving pretext.

    I do fear that the UK is descending into street chaos. I place the blame right at the feet of the government for allowing this to rot so far. The French and others have been warning of this for 2 decades. Londonistan is not a word Mel Phillips invented by one used by French state security agencies fighting the Jihad on their soil seeing it coming from the UK.

    At the end I have stopped caring about what the Guardian writes or opines about anything. Their dissent into the absolute abyss of antisemitism via their Islamophelia and radical leftist nostalgia crying back the old days lends them 0 credit to discussing the EDL which when they do so, they use Islamic and communist narratives.
    The Guardian openly agitated for marches against Israeli and American Embassies and UK Government offices/residences knowing full well that Hezbollah, Taliban and Hamas flags will fly at those demos. After a few marches when everyone saw those elements, they haven’t even bothered to discussing it. In fact they ran a piece by Galloway and his “We are all Hezbollah ” mantra educating us of Jewish terrorism against the British in 1948.

    So they are, in my view the real fascists and the real danger not the EDL. The EDL would not exist but would splinter back to the football league and their pub territories if the UK would stop pretending there is no problem with Jihadis in their midst.

    My question to modernity is what should a non fascist working class English youth do when living in a milieu where third world conflicts are brought onto his doorsteps and gangs rule the street the way they rule prisons.

  6. I haven’t followed the EDL closely, but they appear to be a bunch of working class blokes who have had it with the threats and intimidation from Islamofascists. The mainstream parties refuse to acknowledge the threat that Islamist extremists present to the Western (actually the entire) World. The further problem is that Saudi Arabia in particular funds Mosques throughout the world that are led and support extremist Muslims. So even if you’re right that 50 -70% of Muslims are essentially moderate, it matters not if the Muslim leadership is rabidly anti Western anti Jewish. And if Labour/Conservative/LibDems continue to refuse to deal with the problem, the only alternative for many will be the EDL. And unless the EDL is demonstratably fascist (and that case hasn’t been made), I’ll support them!

  7. ” And unless the EDL is demonstratably fascist (and that case hasn’t been made), I’ll support them!”

    If you take the trouble to read the post you will see that the EDL has been proven to be infiltrated by neo-Nazis, I provided plenty of links 🙂

    The one time founder of the EDL, Paul Ray, has admitted that.

    Plus the fact that its members have a tendency to give the Nazi salute.

    I wonder if you could explain those facts away?

  8. Modernity: and Labour has been infiltrated by thugs like Galloway and Tongue, the Lib/Dems infiltrated by ……..actually not infiltrated, is run by Jew haters – and our buddy David has totally lied by supporting the newly Islamist Turkey’s version of the Flotilla charade. I’m sure some in the EDL are disgusting characters, the majority are not, and are responding to the correctly perceived rollover by the major parties to Islamic Fascists.

    Don’t know about you, but I have no intention of allowing Sharia to become the law of the land – and the EDL shares that sentiment. If you don’t like the EDL, fine, but then at least show the same balls they do by not being pushed around by those trying to push you into 3rd class citizenship – until you create such a group, leave the EDL alone!

  9. Again, the EDL **leadership** is stuffed full of neo-Nazis and BNPers.

    Their supporters keep giving Nazi salutes, so please explain *that* away.

    Those are the facts.

    Did you read any of the links?

  10. @ smtx01

    Didn’t we have another EDLer on the site recently? Summat with a D.


    I haven’t followed the EDL closely, but they appear to be a bunch of working class blokes who have had it with the threats and intimidation from Islamofascists.

    What “threats and intimidation from Islamofascists” do you mean exactly?

    The EDL are a bunch of hooligans whose only word of more than 2 syllables is “Engerland”.

  11. Silke

    there are cities where there are parts where one doesn’t like to go because one gets only scowling looks (it wasn’t like that not too long ago, quite the opposite

    Are you talking about Germany?

  12. There are a lot of people in real denial about the true nature of the EDL. Shame they should remember the lessons of history.

    But if you still can’t deal with the issues surrounding the EDL, here’s a YouTube video that will illuminate the issue:

    Watch out for the EDL supporter with a swastika tattooed on his chest.

  13. Modernity that is like saying that Peace Demos are Hamas and Hezbollah because of flags and slogans one can see.

    Or Union demos with communist flags and slogans.

    The fact is that nobody really knows the EDL because they do not want the rest of us to know them and they despise the press. Those attributes are due to their football firm roots.
    If I was the BNP I would also try my best to infiltrate them. The EDL is the biggest threat to them right now.
    I also can accept the possibility that BNP-ers defected to the EDL for not sharing its Nazi agenda. Who knows.

    As Donald Rumsfeld coined the term: a “known unknown”

    I am wiling to live with the mystery for now. In time, the truth will always surface.

    At the end they are a fringe phenomenon gaining more prominence by the coverage they get, negative or positive.

    I think the British have a reflexive sense of shame that it has come to this. That their politics have descended to the streets.
    That they owe to their suicidal policies in confronting the Jihad fermenting in the UK Muslim community in front of their eyes for almost 3 decades now.
    Groups like this have come up to confront what the government is either denying is taking place or is outright appeasing with statements and policies.

    Good luck as the UK will need it.

  14. armaros,

    You are NOT addressing the issues:

    1) the proven neo-Nazi nature of the EDL leadership
    2) the fact that supporters often give the Nazi salute
    3) why are EDL supporters so proud of their swastika tattoos
    4) etc etc

    Please, address the issue of what the EDL are, based on the evidence.

  15. Modernity

    we cannot address them any more than the EDL has or its detractors.

    I tend to judge them with the same yardstick as any other demo group.

    Once you call people to the street (or when you throw an open house party during college) people will show up whom you may not want showing up.

    That is the risk you run every time you enter this arena, the street.

    I am no less disturbed about the swastikas and salutes as you are.
    But having seen demos from left and right, I will not judge a group based on who might show up at their demos. Otherwise every Peace Rally would be by the Baath Party and Hamas, every protest against wage cuts the making of communists and every international trade protest the making of masked anarcho terrorists destroying property.

    This is why I am on the fence and feel comfortable there for the time being. I cannot dismiss the EDL s claims of rejecting racists anymore than rejecting your claims that they are accepting them.

    My view is that fascists would not reach out to Jews, gays and blacks with such effort as those groups are their enemies. It has never happened before. So unless the EDL is the cleverest most sophisticated neo nazi outfit that ever existed in EU, they do not seem, to me as nazis.

    I know nazis, have had my altercations and confrontations with real nazi skin heads during my youth (as not all skin heads are nazis…some listen to ska music and are apolitical)

    Also there is the practical factor. If you call upon people to join a demo via FB and twitter and have them wear masks (which they do because of the cameras all over the UK) you should expect that creeps will show up in the crowd.
    Once they re there (and even if they are kicked out promptly) the damage is done as the detractors will be all over it in seconds.

    I do know that the Casuals are and always have been anti fascist. They have decades of history to prove that.
    I also know that the Left is capable of all kinds of manipulation of information and images.
    They did it to the Tea Party in the USA (though i do not compare them to the EDL outside of this particular point) and they are doing it against any force standing against their agenda.

    In all honesty, I will not be able to conclude one way or the other until I spend time with them and get to know them personally, which is difficult to say the least.
    I did attend foot matches in EU and have drank with British foot fans in the 90s. I tend to find them very crass, abrasive, drunken and aggressive but not nazis as nazis are an authoritarian group whilst these guys seemed more like anarchist types.
    Still that is no representation of the EDL as I never met anybody from the EDL. Next time I am in the UK I will make an effort to do so.

    They are a fascinating though expected phenomenon. They are a street gang foreign to middle class sensibilities.

  16. Modernity I have seen those all and stated unequivocally that they disturb me as much as they disturb you

    BUT….it isn’t evidence of the EDL being Nazi. It is evidence that they are attracting them.

    Will you dismiss the EDL claiming these guys are not their guys?

    This is also evidence which you seem to dismiss.

    I agree that they will have a very hard time cleaning up their image given the arena they are operating in.

    But when David Duke features Guardian articles on his website and Hamas endorses the NY GZ Mosque, Nazis endorsing the EDL falls into the same category of enemy of my enemy.

    In my experience with fascists (and I can assure you I have some of that having had a knife pointed at my heart after my shirt was ripped open to see if my necklace had a david star on it)

    Fascists are proud of their fascism. They wear their symbols proudly.

    If the EDL were closet fascists and that was their MO ( to pretend otherwise until they have raised an army of nazis) then why would these “members” define their fascism so proudly?

    Again, I am on the fence and will not promote them or endorse them. I have seen what you showed and I have also seen them hugging blacks and gays at demos. Nazis don’t do that.

    I speculate (and I said this before) that they are evolving and they do not want BNP infiltration which is probably occurring more widely than they are willing to admit. As it makes total sense for the BNP to do their best to take them over.

    The BNP is not popular while the EDL is. So it makes sense for the BNP to try to co-opt the EDL.

    They are going to have a hard time keeping these idiots away for sure and until they have shown that they have a direct standard method to dealing with this, they will not get my endorsement.
    I will not condemn them as fast either. That is why I feel comfortable seeing it play out and see where the chip will fall.

    Time will tell as it always does.

    I also wish they didn’t exist. As their mere existence demonstrates a real rot in UK society. A rot they did not cause but are only the effect of.

    If Muslim gangs can ransack the streets and vandalize monuments and insult every aspect of English culture while demanding more and more privileges it is only natural that a force like this will surface to take them on. When police investigate doc film makers and not the haters they exposed, you know there is a problem. When the police investigates Jews who call out antisemitism and holocaust denial instead of the perpetrators, you know there is a huge problem.

    Social cohesion is a lie. It ceased to exist.

    In Denmark it was the Hells Angels who took on Muslim gangs whom the police refused to confront. They took the violent fight right to their door and basically chased them away from whole neighborhoods. And guess what, the public supported them knowing full well they are extortionist gangster thugs. They still preferred their “taxes” to Muslim attacks and intimidation.

    It is now a street war and no matter how much you want to wish it wasn’t, it is here and will continue until the government acts in the interest of the public it was elected to represent.
    As it stands, the UK doesn’t know how to deal with this problem.
    The French have started to confront it as there whole neighborhoods ended up like little Gazas and the FN has started to gain ground.
    Now there is leadership there at the very top willing to deal with this.
    I hope the UK will follow suit but are not holding my breath.

  17. Almost every group in the EU/UK has bee infiltrated by Muslims,Palestinians,and the radical left.And now these people call the shots.

    I don’t know much about the EDL.But if they are pissing off the Loony Left
    and crazy Islamists,then I’m all for them.

    All these groups have an axe to grind,and they will grind anyone that stands in their way.

    If the EDL flies Israeli flags and it irritates the radical Islamists and the radical loony left.Then I’m all for it.

    In fact I would personally donate Israeli flags to the EDL.

  18. In Denmark it was the Hells Angels who took on Muslim gangs

    Wasn’t that basically a turf war between drug dealers? It sounds like you prefer one group to the other. I wonder why that is.

  19. benorr

    Almost every group in the EU/UK has bee infiltrated by Muslims,Palestinians,and the radical left.

    Eh??? Palestinians in the cabinet?

    If the EDL flies Israeli flags and it irritates the radical Islamists and the radical loony left.Then I’m all for it. In fact I would personally donate Israeli flags to the EDL.

    Are you sure you’ve thought that one through properly?

  20. pretzelberg benorr said Palestinians among others. We know that there are Islamists in the Foreign Office and that one of them Mockbul Ali – the twisted soul who tried to con the then government into believing that Yusuf al-Qaradawi is a moderate actually got an OBE from the Queen!

  21. Pretz
    Wasn’t that basically a turf war between drug dealers? It sounds like you prefer one group to the other. I wonder why that is.”

    It was more than drugs. It was also the Arab gangs using proceeds to fund terrorists.

    Yes I would prefer the HA over any of those Lebanese Hezbollah supporting gangs. At least the HA is local and they do not call for genocide of Jews or promote racist ideas.

    They are criminals but not terrorists and welcome members regardless of race or religion.

    Most rapes in Scandinavia are committed by Muslim immigrants when they make up 2%-3% of the population.

    So good for the HA for handing them their asses. I would have preferred the cops to do it but …oh well…they also preferred to hide behind the HA and hand them free reign.

    Welcome to the street.

  22. Most of the crimes in Scandinavia,are done by moslims,these moslims are into drug pushing,pimping, and rapists.They control whole areas in the cities,where the police and firemen refuse to or are too scared to enter.

    Not to mention Jews with any signs of being Jewish.

    Hard to believe that these Scandinavians are the descendants of the Vikings.

  23. modernity

    If you take the trouble to read the post you will see that the EDL has been proven to be infiltrated by neo-Nazis, I provided plenty of links 🙂

    HP has demonstrated time and time again that the Green Party has been infiltrated by (former) BNP members.

    What does this tell us. That fringe party members will try to tag onto any party that coalesces around a ‘new’ idea to subvert it and use its popularity to get to an elected position. Nothing new there. George Galloway is an expert at this.

    But it doesn’t detract from the serious beginnings of a grass roots movement that instantiated because the main political groupings, in this case, are not relating properly to the issue of blatant Islamism in the UK. The EDL could expose these people/infiltrators if it felt that they were just being used. They should do this. But the basic concept of trying to retain ‘Britishness’ is not negative or racist and Islamists are out to subvert ALL the western liberal democracies.

    Very few Muslims are Islamists. But the silent majority MUST CLEANSE ITSELF of the Islamists. It must do it because it wants to remain moderate and enjoy the freedoms that Western Liberal Democracies give their citizens. The silent majority does not want to be in constant conflict with the society around it.

    Labeling the EDL as racist is wrong AND a mistake.

    It is Islamophobic as I am. But then I am religiousphobic too. I see Islam as more sinister than any other religion at this point in time. If I lived in the UK, I may well have become a member of the EDL. Not 100% certain though.

  24. I must say i find the support for the EDL on this thread simply shocking.It seems only modernity blog and pretzelberg can see the EDL for what they truly are, they are BIGOTS, they are An extreme right wing group who intimidate and demonise entire Muslim communities, they cause fear and tension,their politics are the politics of hatred and they must be rejected entirely. Do people here also buy into the BNP ‘supporting’ Israel too?

  25. JerusalemMite, you make a fair point. The BNP will insinuate itself into any confused organisation – it will take advantage of the confusion about identity or otherwise. Indeed we can make the same argument about Islamic supremacists insinuating themselves into so-called moderate Muslim organisations – it’s nothing new, is it? Like you, I believe that if we are going to insist that the EDL be cast out from any political sphere, then we should insist equally that Islamic supremacists and their far left sympathisers be treated with equal contempt by peace-wanting Muslims and decent left wingers.

    The EDL seems to me to be mega confused. I have been told (although I cannot verify it) that its leader runs it from the US because the police are after him for heaven knows what. It has an important message but goes about broadcasting it in totally the wrong way and, because of its confusion it cannot police its membership properly.

    But it is a symptom of the frustration and discontent of those who worry (with due cause, it seems to me) about the encroachment of Islamism on daily life in the UK and the double standards and dhimmitude towards it evidenced by successive UK governments.

    (For myself, I want nothing to do with the EDL, but neither do I want to hear from my elected leaders that we should throw even more money at disaffected Muslims who are upset because the wind has changed direction, for fear that they will act out. I don’t want, either, to be told that I must “understand” why some of them are so frustrated that they want to blow me to bits on my way to work).

    Once we draw the line in the sand against Islamist excesses and behaviour in the UK, and are supported by our police and government against them, then the EDL will cease to be a rallying point.

  26. semtex, why? How would that help you? Would you change your mind about any of what you have written?

  27. smtx01, then you are easily shocked by people’s right to express themselves, or you have been posting for too long on CiF.

    You are also rather addled, too, it seems to me – I have seen excellent arguments expressing understanding of why the EDL might seem relevant to some people who are frustrated by the government’s inaction against Islamic extremism, but no outright support! We are asked to understand Islamist behaviour here in the same fashion, and yet I don’t see you here or on CiF throwing your teddy out of the pram about that.

    “I can understand why…..” is not the same as “I agree with….”

    You sound as affronted by your surroundings as a Duchess in an abattoir.

  28. modernityblog

    Did you read the links?</i.

    I used to belong to Meretz but am embarrassed if someone mentions that to me now.

    Christopher Hitchens used to think that Hizbollah was a 'freedom movement'. Not any more.

    By the way. Most members of Meretz were and are 'good people' but they were led astray into irresponsibility by 'Shalom Akshav'.

  29. There is, of course, a parallel here.

    In the West there are a range of individuals that will occasionally provide intellectual, if not physical, support to Hamas and Hezbollah.

    No matter how much evidence you produce indicating the vile nature of these organisations.

    No matter how you point out how Hamas and Hezbollah are racist, militaristic and in many people’s eyes, fascistic those in the West won’t listen.

    They have decided to ignore Hamas’s charter, to gloss over racist statements from Hamas or Hezbollah leaders, etc

    In short, they have their head in the sand concerning these far right organisations in the Middle East.

    They’re not troubled about the ultimate consequences of the actions of Hamas or Hezbollah, after all that’s happening in another country and they’ve already decided on who the enemy is (in this case, Israelis or Jews).

    All despicable and unnecessary, but people do aid Hamas and Hezbollah by providing arguments for them, excusing their racism and making a case in the press for them.

    Then we turned to the EDL.

    No matter how much evidence you produce indicating the vile nature of this organisation.

    No matter how you point out how they are racist, proto-fascists and neo-Nazis there are people that won’t listen.

    So it seems to me that Western apologists and propagandists for Hamas and Hezbollah are very similar in their mindset to those that would excuse the thugs and neo-Nazis of the EDL.

    No amount of evidence will change their minds, once they’ve decided on who they think the “enemy” is.

  30. @hairshirt ‘Smtx,then you are easily shocked by peoples right to express themselves,or you have been posting for too long on cif, you seem rather addled too,I have seen excellent arguements expressing understanding of why the EDL might seem relevant to some people who are frustrated by the governments inaction against Islamic extremism,but no outright support,we are asked to understand Islamist behaviour here in the same fashion,and yet i dont see you here,or on cif throwing your teddy out of the pram about that.You sound as affronted by your surroundings as a duchess in an abattoir’.

    No Support hairshirt? @George 2.50 ‘Unless the EDL is demonstratably Fascist(& that case hasnt been made, I’ll Support them’

    So you think I’m easily shocked and throwing my toys out of the pram do you hairshirt?
    Well I’m glad to say that I’m in good company in being shocked;
    Jewish Community Organisations also responded with shock and outrage over the EDL
    Mark Gardner CST Communication Director
    ”The EDL intimidate entire Muslim communities,causing fear and tension,Jews ought to remember that we have a long experiance of being on the receiving end of this kind of bigotry”.

    Jon Benjamin Board of Deputies Chief Executive
    ”The EDL’s Supposed support for Israel is empty and duplicitous, it is built on a foundation of Islamophobia and hatred which we reject entirely,sadly we know only to well what hatred for hatreds sake can cause,the overwhelming majority will not be drawn in by this transparent attempt to manipulate a tense political conflict”.
    The Zionist Federation made it abundantly clear that EDL marchers were not welcome at their recent Zionist Federation Demonstration.
    Ben Cohen from Israel Connect, expressing his relief that the EDL did not attempt to join in ”We would not have stood for it,neither would the police and neither would CST’. Indeed the CST advised the Harrow Mosque on stewarding and security when the SIOE(Stop Islamisation of Europe) demonstrated outside the Mosque.
    So yes Hairshirt, I am shocked at the comments on this thread, as someone whose own Mother was viciously beaten up by National Front thugs, and as someone who has always opposed all forms of racial and religious discrimination, I tend to agree more with organisations like the CST than with posters like you. ‘The EDL present a divisive hateful politics that demonises minorities(and in their case one particular minority) ‘Anti Semitisim and all forms of prejudice are best fought by bringing communities together,not setting them in conflict against eachother’. When I quoted these exact same comments upthread, they were all ‘marked down’ by posters. I wonder why that was?

  31. @ armaros / benorr

    In favoring the Hells Angels you seem to be lumping the following groups together:
    a) Muslim drug-dealers/thugs – rivals of the HA
    b) Jihadists (hardly likely to be pimps or rapists)
    c) The vast majority of Muslims.

    Most rapes in Scandinavia are committed by Muslim immigrants

    Where did you read that and how did you come across the story?

  32. Most rapes in Scandinavia are committed by Muslim immigrants

    Where did you read that and how did you come across the story?”

    Mark Steyn first then other sources, some of which I posted above

  33. Pretzel

    Are you pretending to not know that Hezbollah funds itself via criminal activity ?

    Here in Canada they have been busted selling heroin, running whores and smuggling cigarettes, stolen cars and weapons.
    In the USA and internationally they have been known to counterfeit US dollars just like their patron Iran and Irans little friend N KOrea which happens to be the worlds largest producer of meth.

    In Denmark, there was a street war between Lebanese street gangs and the HA during which weapons like rpgs were used.

    Areas were off limits to non Muslims and these gangs were running the place extorting businesses.

    Why is this so shocking?

  34. armaros

    Would that be the same Mark Steyn who claimed “Every Continental under the age of 40 — make that 60, if not 75 — is all but guaranteed to end his days living in an Islamified Europe”?

    And you take what he says as the gospel truth?

  35. This Jewish flirting with EDL is madness.

    Why would you want to associate with a bunch of guys who revere Richard I,

    a) a Jew slaughtering crusader

    b) the king in whose reign occurred the York massacre


    Have you completely lost your senses? Do you even know your own history?

    The EDL hate Muslims. They perceive that Muslims hate Israel. Ergo, they profess support for Israel.

    a) such an alliance would be based merely on hate

    b) the EDL aren’t really in the same existential fight, as are Israelis, and they are without the means, intellectual or logistical, to be any use at all.

    I think that Anglo-Jews are in general so quiestistic, with so little history of violence, that some seem to fall into the trap of admiring or welcoming the first thug who professes support for them that comes along.

    If you think the EDL is any kind of force to rely on, to do your fighting for you, you are doomed to disappointment.

  36. More heat than light has been generated about the EDL on this thread. For myself, (like Serendipity above) I wouldn’t touch them with a ten foot barge pole because my enemy’s enemy is not invariably my friend.

    However, what remains for me is the fact that, because of the craven cowardice of successive UK governments against Islamic supremacism, an organisation like the EDL has been given a way in.

    So if we are going to yell at anyone, let’s yell against a government which throws money at extremists in the vain hope that they will like us and involve themselves fully in the life of the UK and which insists that we bend ourselves out of shape to “understand” them when they show no inclination whatsoever to reciprocate.

  37. @saraleah ‘I wouldn’t touch them with a ten foot barge pole because my enemy’s enemy is not invariably my friend’.

    Who is your enemy?

  38. I don’t think I have any, smtx. I was using the term figuratively, as a figure of speech, a device with which you are obviously not familiar.

  39. pretzelberg

    So you are saying he was lying about Scandinavia rapes then?

    Funny as he actually had to answer these charges in a court and was acquitted for the accusers failure to demonstrate factual errors in his book America Alone.

  40. @ armaros

    Mark Steyn acquitted of what exactly?

    Why do you believe what he says? Surely not because of what he says?

  41. @Saraleah ‘More heat than light has been generated about the EDL on this thread.For myself I wouldn’t touch them with a 10 foot barge pole,because my enemy’s enemy is not invariably my friend’.

    When I asked you who your enemy was, you replied, that you didn’t think you had any, and that you were using the term ‘my enemy’s enemy’,figuratively, as a figure of speech.If we take away the metaphors,and just stick to the facts, would you then agree,that the EDL are a right wing organization that intimidates entire Muslim communities,causing fear and tension,that they a present a divisive,hateful politics that demonises minorities,(and in their case,one particular minority) and would you agree that all forms of prejudice and anti Semitisim are best fought by bringing communities together,not setting them in conflict against eachother?

  42. You are very manichean aren’t you semtex?

    I stand by what I said about more heat than light on this thread, and much of the heat is generated by emotive posts rather than reasoned argument.

    But I repeat, I don’t hate anyone.

    I have certain choices about who I can interact with here. That being the case I’d really rather not discuss this topic with someone as emotional about it as you. OK?

  43. armaros

    “My view is that fascists would not reach out to Jews, gays and blacks with such effort as those groups are their enemies. It has never happened before.”

    The actual Nazis of history reached out to the (definitely not white/aryan) Japanese. Does that mean the Nazis were were not true fascists?

  44. @saraleah’ I have certain choices about who I can interact with on here.That being the case I’d really rather not discuss this topic with someone as emotional about is as you OK’.

    Dont you mean you’d really rather not discuss this topic with someone who disagree’s with you?.

    If you want to play it that way,thats fine by me,but if you wish to be ‘selective in who you choose to interact with’, maybe it would be an idea not to make remarks about me, comment on my posts, and stick your fingers in your ears going la la la la la i cant hear you when I reply .

  45. modernity – a few points if i may:

    *paul ray is NOT a founder of the EDL. most intelligent observers who research the EDL come to this truth very quickly and it is only those who have ulterior motives who disingenuously claim this to be so…like paul ray himself in fact.

    *re: your precious links that ‘prove’ the EDL are Nazis – the guy doin the nazi salute was severely beaten up and thrown off an EDL coach for having nazi sympathies.

    *your linked video with ‘EDL leaders admitting they have links to the BNP’ is discredited because as stated earlier ‘paul ray’ is no more a leader or member of the EDL than you are. Indeed he has never been on a single march / demonstration and is currently holed up in Malta with his lover – the Neo-nazi Nick Gregor.

    Now that we have your ‘straw man’ ‘proof’ out of the way it just remains to say that the idealological basis behind the EDL remains sound…they are essentially an anti-facist, anti-racist, anti-prejudice collective of individuals worried by the rise of Islamic Facism and the apparent pass given to such idealologies due to the ethnicity of the adherents…indeed who are the actual racists here?

    we are fighting facists in Afghanistan…yet on the streets of Britain it seems that the disconnected comfortable pseudo-liberal middle classes do not realise the dangers to the freedoms posed by such groups of radical islamists.

    perhaps when the streets of britain are full of ‘adulterous’ women being stoned to death (iran), homosexuals being hung (iran) or rape victims being prosecuted and jailed (saudi arabia) they will sit up and take notice…and maybe then a more genteel, middle class protest will take place.