Guardian

On the Palestinians, Israel, and American moral clarity


I was tempted to simply post the following image created by Elder of Ziyon without comment.

However, upon reflecting on the significance of the message Elder was conveying, it seemed more fitting to provide a bit of context.

Much of the American hard-left intelligentsia always seem so baffled by the fact that the U.S. has historically been so steadfast in their support of Israel.  They simply can’t understand why, in poll after poll, Americans overwhelmingly side with Israel over the Palestinians.

Some, in an effort to “understand” this dynamic, resort to answers which call upon historic anti-Semitic tropes – such as the injurious “power” of organized Jewry (their control of Congress, the media, etc.)

However, for the overwhelming majority of Americans – who don’t read the Guardian, aren’t smitten with Walt and Mearhsheimer, and aren’t seduced by the vitriol of Glenn Greenwald – the answer is a simple one.

Though Israel, like every Western democracy, of course isn’t perfect, most average Americans instinctively know the difference between a democracy under siege and a reactionary movement whose values simply do not reflect their own.

Per Elder of Ziyon:

Americans are, far more than Europeans, a proudly and passionately patriotic lot, aren’t crippled by moral relativism and, most importantly, know the difference between a friend and a foe.

Yes, some things in life really are that simple.

37 replies »

  1. This is actually bad Hasbarah on your part and on the part of the Elder. Defenders of the Palestinians can simply say that due to the USA strong support for Israel, they had no choice. So lets expand the historic background:
    In the 1700’s the de facto independent Bedouin chieftain Tahar Al Omar rules the Galilee. His allies include Jews, Christians, Mamelucks, and later Druze and Shia. Who leads the local opposition to him and in support of the Ottoman Empire?
    The settled Arabs, known today as the Palestinians.
    In the 1600’s Phaher A din the second, the father of modern Lebanon expands his independent rule southwards.
    Who leads the local opposition to him and in support of the Ottoman Empire?
    The settled Arabs, known today as the Palestinians.
    The Palestinians are the only national liberation movement that opposes the independency of other countries. Jordan in 1968, Lebanon in 1976, Kuwait in 1991.

  2. Dvar, please elaborate. I sincerely don’t understand what you mean by “this is bad hasbara”. American support for Israel is based on nothing more complicated than shared values – a point Elder and me are pointing out.

  3. The Mufti was a British-appointed leader. He was never elected by ordinary Palestinians.

    In WWII, 2,000 Palestinian Arabs fought on Britain’s side and against the Nazis.

    And, well, if you had conducted a poll about the Vietnam war before the US began to loose, you’d have found that an overwhelming majority of Americans supported it.

    So please stop with this “values” nonsense. Americans support Israel because they generally blindly support their government’s foreign policy. If the American government, for the reasons that be, turned its back on Israel, so would the American public.

  4. TROLL ALERT

    don’t click on his BS

    the by Israelinurse aptly dubbed Has-Been Buster is Argentinian from Rosario

    and in the above he is trying to boost democracy Argentinian style

  5. For anyone not blinded by an antizionist ( code for antisemitic )bent , the inextricable bonds that unite America with Israel are as self-evident as the shared values that set them apart from their enemies..

  6. Actually the Mufti, who was commonly considered a leader and hero by the Palestinians, is thought to be the individual who convinced Hitler to choose elimination rather than emigration as the “Final Solution” to the “Jewish Question”.

    The Muslium world has 1,400 years of Jewish blood on its hands and has made no effort to acknowledge, much less compensat, tha debt.

  7. hey hb,

    so the mufti loved the brits so much, he aligned himself with hitler?

    of course, the arabs hated him, because he was aligned with the occupying brits and had him overthrown….right?

    oooh…2000 arabs fought with britain? out of how many millions that resided in the mideast?

    how many thousands more collaberated with the nazis? how many in north africa assisted the nazis in persecuting jews?

    and nice of you to neglect arafat and his aliances

  8. Adam, ‘shared values’ is a vague term when it is not specified. A person like hb here can come to an American and ask, “Is occupation a shared value?” and the most likely answer will be “no.” It will be my answer, and I am an Israeli. But I know there is a damn good reason for the occupation, preventing terrorism, and how many Americans and Europeans will agree to have an occupation continued if it keeps them safe in their own cities?

    When we publicize incomplete arguments we leave the punch line to them, and the one with the best punch line steals the act. By their very nature punch lines are hard to come by, but the better we make our arguments the tougher it gets to them.

    And the punch line here is simple:” name an expansionist state the Palestinians did not support?”

    Oh and hb, 2,000 Palestinians fought Hitler?
    Out of 400,000 Israelis 20,000 fought Hitler, men and women, and we were the minority.
    I’m sure Adam here can arrange for a lengthy list of examples of pro nazi expressions by Palestinians.

  9. mostly fascist, If the british appointed the “grand mufti”, then why was your “grand mufti” canoodling with socialist shitler?

    1941 The Grand Mufti meets Hitler

    And why was your british appointed “grand mufti” reviewing the Muslim nazi troops in this photo? Note the fezes worn by the Muslim nazi troops.

    And please tell us why these Muslims are doing outstretched arm salutes ala their 1930’s role models?

  10. mostly fascist, If the british appointed the “grand mufti”, then why was your “grand mufti” canoodling with socialist shitler?

    1941 The Grand Mufti meets Hitler

    And why was your british appointed “grand mufti” reviewing the Muslim nazi troops in this photo? Note the fezes worn by the Muslim nazi troops.

  11. At the risk of raising the ire of some readers of these pages I merely suggest that ‘every’ is somewhat of an over-statement.

    Meanwhile, may we look forward to a more ppeaceful 2011, accompanied by resoned debate: ” I disagree with what you say but I will defend to death your right to say it” – attributed to Voltaire, Churchill

    From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Revolt

    ‘The Arab Revolt (1916–1918) (Arabic: الثورة العربية‎ Al-Thawra al-`Arabiyya) (Turkish: Arap İsyanı) was initiated by the Sherif Hussein bin Ali with the aim of securing independence from the ruling Ottoman Turks and creating a single unified Arab state spanning from Aleppo in Syria to Aden in Yemen.’

    ‘The United Kingdom agreed in the Hussein-McMahon Correspondence that it would support Arab independence if they revolted against the Ottomans. The two sides had different interpretations of this agreement. In the event, the United Kingdom and France reneged on the original deal and divided up the area in ways unfavourable to the Arabs under the 1916 Sykes-Picot Agreement. Further confusing the issue was the Balfour Declaration of 1917, which promised support for a Jewish “national home” in Palestine.’

    A more controvertial reference found in checking the Voltaire quote..

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Justice_of_Roosting_Chickens
    ‘Churchill used the term “Roosting Chickens” in a short essay Some People Push Back: On the Justice of Roosting Chickens first published on September 12, 2001. In that article, Churchill alleged that the September 11, 2001 attacks against the United States were “acts of war” by the “Islamic East” in defense against the “crusades” waged by the “Christian West” (e.g. Arab-Israeli conflict and The First Gulf War) throughout the late 20th century.’

  12. Churchill THE Churchill died in 1965 and these days one only hears the name in connection with persons THE Churchill would have subjected to a good hiding.

    Dvar
    when asking Americans about occupation, one should remind them that they did occupation and that they did it in an at least for me so unequivocally beneficial way that they are to be lauded for it through the ages. But then, we the occupied behaved most of the time as losers should.

  13. Richard, they didn’t “renege”. You need a better source than Wikipedia and Arab propaganda.

    Silke, well said on Churchill. Richard of course quotes an antisemite beloved of neo-Nazis.

  14. I see a picture of Yassir Arafat with Saddam Hussein.

    Do I need to provide a link to the picture of Donald Rumsfeld shaking hands with Hussein, or to that of George Bush Sr. sipping coffee with Tariq Aziz in the White House?

    Are those examples of American moral clarity?

    @Dvar

    Preventing terrorism may be a good reason for military occupation. This is recognized in international legislation. What is objected to, however, is the transfer of civilian population to the territories, forbidden under the Geneva Conventions and declared illegal by all judges of the International Court of Justice, including the American one.

  15. Dvar

    never mind, one of Filth-Booster’s many professions is “wood engineer” (I quote from memory) which certainly is a qualification to pronounce on international law.

    My bet though is that just given the law he couldn’t even figure out when a vacation day in German law counts as granted. (about this on the surface so simple subject I learned something new from court decisions coming out month after month for the years I was on the job)

    but he is also claims to be linguist who pontificates at length of the superiority of Spanish over English based on the “research” he has done that Anglo-Speakers/Writers don’t use the vocabulary.

    i.e. his “intellectuality” is of a kind best left uncommented, unread and unregarded.

  16. HB’s anti-Americanism is as comically juvenile as his anti-Zionism. It really takes a lot of ideological conditioning to wake up in the morning truly convinced that America and Israel are ogres and reactionary Palestinian terrorists are sympathetic victims of Western colonialism.

  17. Here’s something a great deal more important and more perceptive than the pathetic troll who has no friends of his own so spends his time with his enemies. It’s from the same source as the poster above – Elder of Zion

  18. Guys I’m familiar with hb reasoning, and it is a case of ideological conditioning. In his core he is probably a good person, and putting our own ideological conditioning aside, he is actually smart. But smart people too will run out of arguments when they are on the wrong side. This is what happened to him here, when he brought Donald Rumsfeld as a counter argument in a debate about Israel and Palestine, not the USA. He has no Israeli examples.
    But the example itself is wrong on many levels, first most Americans have a clear disapproval of their country relationships with tyrants. This cannot be said on the Palestinian residents of Kuwait who enthusiastically supported the invasion of Kuwait. Second this was the Cold War, USA needed allies and oil, they did not have a lot of choices.

  19. Great skit Gerald, but people who steps into hostile places to prove their point deserve credit for having a good and healthy chutzpa. I believe the Elder had done it a few times in the past.

  20. mostly fascist, If the british appointed the “grand mufti”, then why was your “grand mufti” canoodling with socialist shitler and not with Winston Churchill?

    1941 The Grand Mufti meets Hitler

    And why was your british appointed “grand mufti” reviewing the Muslim nazi troops in this photo? Note the fezes worn by the Muslim nazi troops.

    And please tell us why these Muslims are doing outstretched arm salutes ala their 1930’s role models?

  21. mostly fascist, If the british appointed the “grand mufti”, then why was your “grand mufti” canoodling with socialist shitler and not with Winston Churchill?

    1941 The Grand Mufti meets Hitler

    And why was your british appointed “grand mufti” reviewing Fez wearing Muslim nazi troops?

    And please tell us why Muslims are doing outstretched arm salutes ala their 1930’s role models?

  22. Dvar — Adam posits the existence of something called “American moral clarity.” I dispute its existence, and suggest instead that America’s actions aren’t based on moral considerations, and that the public generally supports the government’s foreign policy no matter what.

    If I want to confront a notion about America, I need to give American, not Israeli, examples. That’s why I brought up America’s support for Saddam Hussein at a time in which he was using chemical agents to mass murder Iranians in a war of aggression. Such support ran clearly counter to the “values” Adam claims the American-Israeli relationship is based on, yet there wasn’t the faintest hint of a protest from the American public.

    The Vietnam war is another good example. The public supported that clearly immoral enterprise; and, surprisingly, its most ardent supporters were young Americans, precisely those most likely to be drafted.

    We can conclude that, far from being value-driven citizens, Americans are an immature bunch with little tradition of defying their own government’s behavior on the international scene, unless American lives begin to be lost in huge quantities.

  23. the foul-mouthed I-as-a-(Fake?)Jew Ibrahim Ibn Yusuf dreams himself into a position of authority

    WE can conclude that

    I wonder does he imagine himself as a Priest, as a Professor, as a Wood Engineer, as a Know-Nothing Linguist or as just the jerk he is?

  24. HB seems to be quite confused about the Cold War, too. That is quite strange, because a real “progressive” wouldn’t, in any way, support Soviet totalitarianism, would he? Nor would he have any doubts, 20 years after the fall of Communism, as to which side (the U.S. or the Soviet Union) was right, would he? He’d look at the fall of the Berlin Wall as a source of pride…a testament to the righteousness of Western values and a source of shame for those who, during the Cold War, remained neutral or expressed sympathy for the Soviets.

    So, I’m beginning to wonder if he (or she) is a true liberal – in the classical sense of the word.

  25. Adam

    hb is not a liberal or a progressive…he is a leftist radical, on par with the sds, the guys from answer, etc.

    these people see everything that democracies do as evil, and blame the world powers for all the ills of the rest of the world

  26. Adam

    HB as you so politely call him is nothing except a provocateur prowling the net in the hope of enticing a decent person to argue with him on his blog in order to resurrect it from its Zombiedom.

    He is a fraudster who once claimed “I as a Jew” and somewhere on his blog he brags that he has defeated many a “Zio” in debate.

    I first “met” him at Yaacov’s where he certainly couldn’t even score the tiniest point. Also since knowing the crowd at Elder of Ziyon really well by now I know that him having scored anything but utter defeat around that place is delusional nonsense.

    But most of all he is a deeply dishonest person who once by utterly false claims tricked Yaacov into a mutual blog where his fake identity blew up in no time whatsoever.

    Since he also claims to be the author of several collections of short stories I find that rather amusing. An author of fiction who can’t even think up a plausible character ???
    Success as a writer is certainly owed quite often to luck but where such lack of imagination is manifest I vote for once for ineptitude being the cause.

    He is a loser and a fraudster and most of all he once made the most callous remark about Yaacov’s son and war injuries.

  27. Toko LeMoko

    Actually the Mufti, who was commonly considered a leader and hero by the Palestinians, is thought to be the individual who convinced Hitler to choose elimination rather than emigration as the “Final Solution” to the “Jewish Question”.

    Commonly considered by whom Toko?

    are you suggesting that Al Husseini could have talked Hiterl out of carryign out the Holocaust?

  28. Dvar Dea,

    But I know there is a damn good reason for the occupation, preventing terrorism, and how many Americans and Europeans will agree to have an occupation continued if it keeps them safe in their own cities?

    If the purpose of the occupation is preventing terrorism, then how do you explain the settlements being built in the occupied territories? If there is such a terrorist threat, why put Israelis in such danger?

    And FYI. Robert Pape conducted a study of all suicide atatcks in 30 years (funded by the DOD) which concluded that in 90-95% of attacks, military occupation (not religion) is the motivation. The book is called, Dying to Win.

    The occupation is fueling terrorism, not controlling it.

    And the punch line here is simple:” name an expansionist state the Palestinians did not support?”

    The one they did support was the same one the US gave support to in the decade long war against Iran.

    Out of 400,000 Israelis 20,000 fought Hitler, men and women, and we were the minority.

    And a few thousand sought to create an alliabnce with Hitler against the British.

    I’m sure Adam here can arrange for a lengthy list of examples of pro nazi expressions by Palestinians.

    Are you sure you want to go there Dvar, because it’s very easy to play the montage game with Nazis?

  29. Many laughable (and somehow longish) BS can be read here by “anti-Zionists” like this shingo fellow, but undoubtedly this is the most enjoyable:

    And FYI. Robert Pape conducted a study of all suicide atatcks in 30 years (funded by the DOD) which concluded that in 90-95% of attacks, military occupation (not religion) is the motivation. The book is called, Dying to Win.

    Must be an excellent book strongly connected to reality.

    The terror attack in Stockholm must be an exception, not to speak about these.

    A series of Christmas Eve church attacks and explosions left at least 38 people dead in two Nigerian cities, and at least six wounded in the Philippines.
    The situation was especially tense in Jos in central Nigeria, long a hotspot of ethnic and religious friction. It was hit late Christmas Eve by seven explosions that killed 32 and injured 74, many as they were doing their Christmas shopping, police said.
    In Maiduguri in northern Nigeria, suspected members of an Islamist sect that launched an uprising last year attacked three churches, leaving six people dead and one of the churches burnt down, an army spokesman said.
    In the Philippines, a bomb in a church on Jolo island during Christmas mass wounded six. Officials would not immediately name any suspects but the island is a bastion of the Abu Sayyaf, a group linked to Al-Qaeda.

    That the Philippines and Nigeria are under Israeli and/or US occupation are nondisputable facts in Shingo’s fantasy world. Maybe these countries are occupid by the neocon/Zionist Swedish government…

  30. Peter

    I once listened to a Pape book tour lecture. He is an engaging fellow. If he writes as well as talks his book may convince the ones who want to be convinced.

    That Pape-Live experience was before I had figured out that the majority of US-historians and academics in general these days write those books as a kind of self-recommendation/application for a government job. It takes a while for an unfamiliar with academia person to figure that one out.

    I owe to Pape that I learned more about the Tamil Tigers from him in some minutes than I had in years of headline reading.

    Today I divide those wannabe military advisors basically into two groups:

    One says today’s technlogy can easily control a territory. They are accused of being in the pay of the industrial complex and Pape with his air craft carriers is all we need seems to be one of them, not necessarily in the pay but kind of embrace of that side of the spectrum.

    Then there is the other side who think that hiding behind a piece of rock in a bit of a cave with an AK47 or a good rifle may still have its uses i.e. who claim control of territory matters.

    After years of listening to all the book talks I could get a hold of I find the “boots on the ground matter” side more trustworthy, less high-flown language, more respect for human lives and injuries, all in all more down to earth (pun intended).

    And also a lot more humble in what they claim is doable.

  31. Judah Kardom

    Back in May 1948, the Ishuv proclaimed independence and sovereign rights for the Jewish nation. Nowhere in the Declaration of Israeli Independence one can find references to precise border delimitations.

    On May 22 1948 Israel confirmed it’s borders in a letter to the UNSC.

    May 22 1948 The reply of the Provisional Government of Israel (S/766) to the questions addressed to the “Jewish authorities in Palestine” was transmitted by the acting representative of Israel at the United Nations on May 22.

    Question (a): Over which areas of Palestine do you actually exercise control at present over the entire area of the Jewish State as defined in the Resolution of the General Assembly of the 29th November, 1947?

    “In addition, the Provisional Government exercises control over the city of Jaffa; Northwestern Galilee, including Acre, Zib, Base, and the Jewish settlements up to the Lebanese frontier; a strip of territory alongside the road from Hilda to Jerusalem; almost all of new Jerusalem; and of the Jewish quarter within the walls of the Old City of Jerusalem. The above areas, outside the territory of the State of Israel, are under the control of the military authorities of the State of Israel, who are strictly adhering to international regulations in this regard. The Southern Negev is uninhabited desert over which no effective authority has ever existed.”

    So you see Judah, by declaring which areas were outside of Israel, the Provisional Government of Israel was clearly establishing it borders.