35 replies »

  1. I have a better definition of anti semitism:
    “the belief by gentiles that Jews may be criticized like any other group”

    Oh – wait … is that anti semitic as well!

  2. gentile person: “antisemitism: “the belief by gentiles that Jews may be criticized like any other group”

    Oh – wait … is that anti semitic as well!” No, but it is childish

  3. I have a definition of gentile: “a culturally/psychologically insecure person that constantly needs someone to bash in order to feel good about himself for a little while.”

    Surely, the gentile´s target can vary: blacks, indians, colonized peoples and the savages of the occasion, but the central one, basic to their very cultural christian mythology, we know, are the Jews.

    So gentiles stole monotheism, but were so insecure of their new religion that they needed the Jew as a “witness people”. Later, with the Enlightenment, they thought themselves above superstition but came to worship the God of Abstract Humankind, to which Jews were forced to pay the entrance ticket by abandoning their jewishness.

    But when Jews joined the dream and excelled in all areas, be it the arts, medicine, science, music, law, journalism, literature, philosphy, proving their culture´s accumulated resources, then that very same gentile´s insecurity resurfaced. As resentful as ever, they accused Jews of disproportionately dominating the professions, recycled all the old christian prejudices and invented new ones, accusing Jews of have no nation, or of being a Nation within a nation, unable to be true citizens.

    Then Jews managed, against all odds, to rebuild their Nation, established through the international community channel, the UN. They build a highly successful country, despite the constant threat of extinction by surrounding autocracies/dictatorships.

    And now, the etenral resentful gentile says Israel has no legitimacy. That she kills palestianian children and harvest their organs, that she uses disproportionate force to defend itself, blah, blah, blah.

    Well, dear gentile, just f*** off, and sulk yourself under your voluntary dhimmitude.

  4. So many shocking posts, one really wouldn’t know where to begin. No surprise that such people should be attracted to a newspaper like the Guardian. If anyone wants to know why the only victims I cared about on 7 July 2005 were Jewish, I suggest they look at those posts.

    I am really rather pleased that Britain is effectively bankrupt. No nation deserved it more.

  5. “the belief by gentiles that Jews may be criticized like any other group”

    If the gentiles of Britain had treated Jews like any other group, that nation might well have done something about the Holocaust instead of turning its back.

  6. it is the Jewish fear of being hated, that fuels the accusation of anti-Semitism … their “Chosen People” narrative

    We are indebted to the historian Pual Johnson for an adroit analysis which pinpoints the repeated, vile anti-Semitism in those like “templeforjerusalem”:

    – It is usually difficult to tell the “fear of anti-Semitism” from anti-Semitism per se.

    – Jews have always interpreted “chosen people” to mean, not chosen to be superior, but instead chosen as messengers of God’s word, much like a priest or minister. If this is indeed the mission assigned to them by God, then they have accomplished it extraordinarily well; prior to Judaism, ethical monotheism was a rare concept, while it is now ackowledged by approximatley half of humanity, in the form of Christianity and Islam.

    Unfortunately. “temleforjerusalem” is all too typical of the Guardian weltanschauung.

  7. What a disturbingly hateful and bigoted little post from Serjew, there. The fact that it has been so highly recommended reminds me why I know no longer converse with the frankly insane likes of poster this website tends to attract.

    Absolutely sickening material. Serjew is worse than Galliano.

  8. HP, dumb-comment-of-the-day-award:

    “If the gentiles of Britain had treated Jews like any other group, that nation might well have done something about the Holocaust instead of turning its back.”

    You mean apart from waging WW2 from the first day to the last ?

    On that score you could criticize an awful lot of countries..but you choose GB ??

    Weird.

  9. diss,

    “On that score you could criticize an awful lot of countries..but you choose GB ??”

    As to that commenter on HP, I don’t know, but I for one certainly single out the United Kingdom. You know why? Because they closed to Jewish refugees the one and only land that actually belongs to them (Palestine, the Land of Israel). As a point of national sovereignty, every nation has the right to close its own country. But Palestine is not and has never been anything but the Jews’ country, so Britain was outside its rights to close it to the Jews.

  10. ZT:

    “Because they closed to Jewish refugees the one and only land that actually belongs to them (Palestine, the Land of Israel). ”

    Except that it did not belong to them at the time.

  11. More irrelevant what-aboutery from ThankGodHe’sAnImbecile.

    Dude, wake me up when you come here with an argument.

    On second thoughts..

  12. Wrong as usual diss. There has been a continuous JEWISH presence in what is now Israel since biblical times.

    Try to read more widely than the “truth” as presented by CiF and other Israel-bashing organs, there’s a good …..

  13. @ Yohoho and others

    You have nothing to say about the disgusting hate rant from Serjew?

    I am a “gentile” – and I also provided the screen-shot that is the basis of this piece!

    Will nobody here condemn Serjew?

  14. CW is committed to allowing readers to comment freely.

    However, please note that posts which contain threats of violence (implied or otherwise) will be removed. And, please note also, that commenters are to refrain from making racist comments about ANY group.

    In short, please use discretion, and avoid ad hominem attacks, when engaging in debates with other readers.

    Thanks.

  15. Listen, Mr. Pretzel, quit playing dumb, will you?

    All I did was to mock the same kind of nonsense Jews receive on a dayly basis at cesspools such as the Guardian and HP, a prime example of which being the post to which this thread refered to.

    So, spare us your feigning outrage and theatrical tantrums.

  16. Dear CIF Watch,
    I am surprised and shocked that my comments on Jonathan Freedman’s concerns of “anti-semitism” have been interpreted by yourselves as deserving “Guardian readers anti-semitic comment of the day”.

    My intention within the comment, was to draw Freedman’s awareness to the feelings of Non-Jews regarding this sensitive issue.

    I have often tried, but clearly failed, to develop a Non-Jewish perception of “anti-semitism” and the fear thereof, but I have to accept that sometimes it is quite impossible to find any common ground with certain people, as they do seem to be suffering from extreme forms of “persecution” which to me, seems to have become central to their psychological makeup.

    Sadly, it seems that your elevation of my CIF comments, seems consistant with my concerns.

    I would like to reassure you that I bear no malace towards my Jewish friends, Jews in general, Zionism, and the Jewish faith, from which I gain significant nurturing.

    My concern is only to hold a mirror up to “the fear of anti-semitism”, so that Jews like yourselves, can see what I see and feel what I feel.

    If I failed to do this in a sensitive and polite manner, then I am truly sorry.

  17. templeforjerusalem

    You seem to have internalised a lot of antisemitism without the least awareness of it. That sentence on “chosen” could have come from Stormfront.

    The “chosenness” of the Jews refers to the 613 laws Jews are required to keep. Those laws that refer specifically to the Temple have to be ignored since the Temple no longer exists.

    You need to read sources that are not politicised. To put it mildly.

    And there are the Noachide laws for non-Jews which make an individual of any faith the equal to an observant Jew if s/he adheres to them.

    No superiority there.

    There’s a lot in assuming that we want to feel what you feel about Jew-hatred. Personally, I hate it and I feel that when it comes from ignorance alone there may be hope to remedy it.

  18. Ariadne,
    Thanks for your reponse.
    I agree that Maimonides defined the 613 laws from scripture for Jewish people and the 7 laws for Gentiles, but I cannot agree that we are equal as clearly, in the last temple period, Jewish males were placed over Jewish females, and gentiles were only allowed into the Gentile court. This is hardly equal.

    As for my internalised “anti-semitism”, this may well be true, a jealousy, in all its darkness. But, this jealousy does not gain me access to Jewish worship, to Jewish understanding and acceptance. So, what can I do? Actively hate Jewish people? I do not want to do that, because I believe that Jewish people are G-Ds inheritance, but equally believe that “Egyptians” and “Assyrians” (Isaiah 19) have a significant part to play alongside jewish people, in harmonising our world.

    The real role of Jewish people, in their ascent to Zion, is their ability to act as the conduit to redemption for all of humanity, not just themselves. this is my concern and my hope.

  19. diss

    You mean apart from waging WW2 from the first day to the last ?

    You must be smoking some bad stuff thinking that the GB fought the Nazis in order to save the Jews. The Brits did many good things too, but are resposible for the death of many Jews not allowed to enter into Palestine or the GB.

    Except that it did not belong to them at the time.

    Even a blind can win the shooting championship.
    Because it did not belong to them at the time the Brits were correct to send them back to their deaths.

    (A footnote for total idiots like diss: Exactly this is the reason that now it belongs to us.)

  20. @templeforjerusalem

    I don’t often comment here but I have read your first post above. I’d really like to engage with you in depth about your ideas but I have the feeling that it would not be a fruitful use of my time. You are too convinced that you are right and as a psychologist I have found that people who have such an overblown sense of their own rectitude are scarcely able to see the other’s point of view, as you yourself admit in your post. I also get the feeling from the content of your post to CiF as well as your first post here that you really don’t have a clue how offensive you have been. You are trying to blind us with science about paranoia, but worst of all you are trying to argue that the old chestnut, that Jews invariably think of themselves as the chosen people, is the cause of hatred of them and therefore you are blaming the victims for the crime. I can only assume that you don’t know many Jews.

    Your post above is a passive aggressive attack disguised as an apology.

    I find the following particularly interesting because it gives the lie to your being “truly sorry” for having been so offensive. In fact you are saying that you can’t understand what all the fuss is about and minimising your antisemitic remark, which is of course further evidence of antisemitism. Ignorance or lack of understanding of how what one does can cause offence doesn’t excuse the offender from guilt or blame:

    “… I have often tried, but clearly failed, to develop a Non-Jewish perception of “anti-semitism” and the fear thereof, but I have to accept that sometimes it is quite impossible to find any common ground with certain people, as they do seem to be suffering from extreme forms of “persecution” which to me, seems to have become central to their psychological makeup.

    Sadly, it seems that your elevation of my CIF comments, seems consistant with my concerns….”

    The putting of quotes around “antisemitism” let us see your agenda immediately and your placing quotes around “elevation” of your CiF comments is yet more evidence of passive-aggression.

    As a matter of interest, do you regularly find it impossible to find common ground with certain people, other than Jews? People who are devoid of any theory of mind which would help them to apprehend how other people are feeling and how they might feel differently often find it difficult to be around others whose ideas are different from theirs particularly if they are confidently expressed. Of course such a state of affairs would explain but not excuse the offence you have given.

    I imagine that your pride is hurt by CiF Watch basing an article around something you believe is fair comment. It wasn’t. It was nasty and snide, but let the reaction be a learning experience for you. It may make you feel uncomfortable now, but perhaps the next time you write to CiF you will do as they advise and think before you post (and try to feel too?)

    Ariadne, for what it is worth, I believe you are correct that templeforjerusalem has internalised a lot of antisemitism. As I said CiFWatch’s reproduction of his post under the antisemitic label must have hurt his pride. I genuinely doubt that he realised that he was being offensive for the reasons I give above (ie it is doubtful that he possesses sufficient theory of mind) but that doesn’t excuse him, nor does it detract from the further offence of his faux apology.

  21. Yvonne, Thank you very much for your intense and informative comments. My entire posting on CIF was a defense (a gentile defense) against the endless accusations that I believe a lot of Jewish people resort to, if non- Jews do not simply open doors and nod politely. It is my way of challenging Jews to look at themselves and ask truthfully: What is to be gained from accusing somebody of Anti semitism? (This could equally be said to me, in reverse)

    My concerns are that I believe that the average gentile simply does not care and is therefore only really capable of “smears” like those of Julian Assange’s and Mel Gibson’s comments. They, to me seem hardly anti-semitic.

    As to your observations of internalised anti-semitism, this is something I need to explore as I grew up in South Africa, spent a lot of time in Jewish families, had a (mildly) anti-semitic commenting parent (like any average protestant) , have always valued my Jewish friends, but never invited to a Bar mitzvah, wedding, or event that was of Jewish society.

    My parents were baptist missionaries.

    I feel that I have the “right” to comment as I do, as I feel that I have “earned” it, simply by having Jewish friends for so long, that I feel that my comments should be heard. They are an expression of what I see and feel. I found Ariadne’s comment “assuming that we want to feel what you feel about jewish hatred” off the mark as I assume that you Need to feel what I feel….. Obviously I am not here to add to further hatred in this world, but, if you think that anti-semitism is “internalised” this needs addressing. (I Need to be heard, in other words)

    For what it is worth, my visit to Birkenau, allowed me to emotionally release, as I realised the smallness of the cruelty inflicted on me, compared to those that died there. But, this should not allow former PM Sharron stating that “The world stood by, as the atrocities took place” as I had two grandfathers who fought Hitlers armies.

    I suggest that the problem is not entirely mine. I do, though, come bearing gifts (Greek) and have spent an extraordinary amount of time developing http://www.templeforjerusalem.org, which takes comments on pathology to another level.

    As to my veiled apologies and comments of appreciation, all I can say is that I write as closely to my understanding of my own truth as possible.

    Obviously, I find it difficult to find any form of agreement either with Jewish or non-Jewish people, regarding what I am trying to achieve. Any person who claims to have seen the Merkavah would, but this is what I live with and believe that going forward in good faith is the best I can do.

    As to my offensiveness, this is a difficult one as I have to offend to get my message across, and indeed, it seems that its the only way for people to listen. I do NOT intentionally try to hurt people, I hate that, and dislike being accused of that. I believe that the move to Zion is messianic in nature and this is an environmental issue that I have responded to in a creative manner. If anything, its my desire to be on stage, as my parents did not allow me to be in Oliver, aged 10 (when my Jewish friends were).

    I hope that gives some breadth to my comments.

  22. Yvonne, some more. Actually, I felt honoured that CIF Watch had picked up on the comment. I felt that I was being taken seriously, and also, not actually considered as being anti-semitic, more a distant cousin. I felt included, one of the family, smelly, but accepted. I am sure that I have always wanted to be adopted by a Jewish family, and why not here? Through the back door, as it were.

    I am sorry if that sounds really crazy, but it feels great.

    I think that this is an expression of my feelings of spiritual inferiority, that Baptists were not nearly as good as Jews, our study of the Israelites in Sunday School and Church was bound to cause me to question my status within (or from without) Judaism. So too, maybe TfJ is an expression of trying to impress, to regain ego, crushed at 10 years old.

  23. Temple thank you for your fulsome reply. I think you will agree that your challenge was ill thought out, given the reaction to it here.

    I think also that you need to get to know a wide variety of Jewish people. Your assertion that “a lot of Jewish people resort to…” is of course an absurd generalisation. That may be the case among the uneducated (but by no means all of them); certainly most educated Jews tend not to behave in this fashion.

    When antisemitism was not part of the social fabric and public discourse, a great deal could be gained from calling out antisemitism for the poison it is. At present it has become acceptable again, thanks to places like CiF and other MSM and many people are inured to it – except of course Jews – and therefore don’t notice it as much as they do other racisms.

    This is borne out by your curious sentence, that you believe the average gentile does not even care and therefore filth from Assange and Gibson doesn’t seem to you to be antisemtism! I classify Assange and Gibson as being among the less educated I referred to above, but if we look at their “not caring” (and I’d be interested to know exactly what you mean by that) as being evidence of their ignorance, this does not mean that their antisemitic insults are any less reprehensible or offensive!

    The rest of your post has many generalisations! I know many Protestants and Baptists who are not in the least antisemitic (although I have also come across quite a few who are, and I tend to stay away from them). From that experience alone, my own view – which is not meant to be a generalisation – I have found the Baptist missionaries I have met at conferences and social functions to be at least inflexible towards Judaism if not openly hostile, and those I met had the rather irritating habit of conflating Jewishness in general with Zionism. One I met at a conference actually said that he believed the Jews should lose Israel because they had not yet developed sufficiently to accept that Jesus was the true messiah! (Others, including his fellow Baptists) who overheard this looked astounded at his crassness, but not one of them took him to task about his insensitivity and, yes, his blatant antisemitism (Look at the part of the EUMC definition of antisemitism which sets out that it is antisemitic to deny Jewish people the right to their own homeland in Israel).

    You may indeed have the right to comment as you do, but at least don’t resort to generalisations and speak as if you have a wide enough knowledge of these things to be able to claim your judgements as final and immovable! Your original comment found a ready home at CiF because it ticked all their antisemitic boxes whether you meant it to or not!

    Your having Jewish friends doesn’t make you an expert in knowing what is and is not offensive and antisemitic. And you should also couch your opinions less dogmatically too, but be prepared for the sensitive reader still to take you to task for them if you are unclear in what you mean.

    I’m afraid that the world DID stand by for the most part, whether or not your grandfathers did their bit to try to prevent it, as Hitler was performing his grisly work exterminating one third of my parents’ families. This third lived in Riga and were exterminated because no country would take them in. My parents were lucky enough to escape but it was hard for them to find a place.

    And rest assured, being offensive, although it may get you heard, is not the best way to reach your target audience. You will have heard that “A soft word turneth away wrath”. Hard words about Jews will encourage wrath from them, as you have found out. How might it have been had you thought more, put yourself in their shoes and asked questions rather than made blanket and absolute statements you had no right to make?

  24. Yvonne, Again, I feel it important to comment.
    Temple for Jerusalem is a way of ordering my world. There are 12 petals for the 12 tribes. I say, Come in, all who are monotheist are welcome, there is a place for everybody. The Jewish people act as a mediator between the 2 monotheist giants, all according to a simple Solomonic interpretation of architectural language, relevant to the site.

    TfJ is a design response to the obvious architectural and liturgical issues of Temple Mount.
    1: The Dome of the Rock covers the sacred rock, and is filled with images of crowns, trees and patterns related to celestial coronation.
    2: The Jews, need no longer pray at the Western Wall, if they choose to enter and take up their seats, specifically allocated to them. (The two petals under the “Michael” upright)
    3: Those of monotheist belief are entitled to take up the 10 other petals, if they so choose, thereby reinstating the 10 “lost” tribes as equals with the Southern Kingdom. I understand that Jerusalem is on the borders of the 2 Southern Kingdom lands.
    4: Judaism would have to accept the very real problem, that personal sacrifice is not longer capable of being performed, other than the yearly sacrifice at Passover. This is a logistical issue as TfJ cannot offer extensive sacrificial facilities. This means that some of the 613 laws have to be dispensed with and that Judaism may be required to accept some legislative editing.
    5: Continuous service can be held, day and night, for the instruction of visitors.
    6: Because of the solar and lunar columns, these identifiers allow those that adhere to the Christian and Muslim faiths, to join Judaism, in collective worship, thereby achieving a common place of worship, allowing for a possibly enormous congregation, when those isolationists who choose to not participate, are left in the existing arrangement outside.

    This is the essence of the designs opportunity. People simply have to enter, judging for themselves as to its viability or not.

    There is no other solution, other than the destruction of the Dome and the building of a Herodian “type” temple, which will not only be archaic, but also quite unable to cope with the multiplication of the sacrificial requirements of the Law.

    It is with the above in mind, that my last sentence of my original post was framed. I am attempting to offer a place of worship where people, male, female, gay, disabled, Christian Jewish and Muslim, can freely and equally offer worship and receive instruction.
    I remind you that the previous temple did not even accept disabled people.

    As I say, it offers to provide order to my world.

  25. Yvonne, Thank you again for you time and reply. It posted before my TfJ description, but I have only read it now.

    As for your comments regarding your loss of familiy during WW2, I can only accept that you have the right (dare I say) to your comments regarding Allied actions prior and during the war. It was a terrible time and my eyes well up as I type, the enormity of the evil of Birkenau still shock and moves me every time I think of it. To think that my (part) German ethnicity was related to this murder, is profoundly shameful, even if my Grandmother was Afrikaner/German, 8th generation South African. It was from this ethnic line that my father felt it appropriate to keep Mein Kamph on the top right of his bookshelf. Sometimes I forget how sinister that actually was. My parents (especially father) disliked me playing with Jewish children and it is from that tension, that I one day said to my friend, something to the effect “…. because you are Jews” (aged 8), that I realised the darkness that was possible to be uttered. It seems that my comments, regarding anti-semitism have once again brought dark clouds.

    But, I again must try to redeem Julian and Mel. Both rant and say dark things when pushed, or drunk or having lost a gorlfriend, Mel’s comments are like a person cursing God, except embarrassing himself in the process.
    If I were Jewish, I surely would not find his comments anything more than dull, valueless and shameful. Galliano seems different, as saluting and stating a love for Hitler must be taken as a drunken gay outrageous act, which rightly got him into serious trouble. He too, when sober, was remorseful. When defending these peoples outbursts, is it not fair to question whether they pose any real threat to Jewish people or, do you see it as an escalating problem? Have they been systemic or isolated? I suggest the latter. But true, it is best to keep this in check as they are role models and there are people out there that do wish Jews ill.

    My concern though remains. 1: When will we all be welcome to share in Judaism’s rich understanding of scripture? 2: What is the best way to defuse the Temple Mount riddle? 3: Is there really a need to hold onto pre Iron-age levitical law, considering a significant amount of it is not applicable? 4: When will we reach a reasonable consensus regarding the distribution of global resources, and is not Jerusalem the symbolic city of harmonised humanity? 5: Is the Israeli state moving towards this goal?

    It is profoundly significant that the former President was jailed as this gives the state a significant boost in its presentation of impartiality. It would be good to extend this to others, but a mechanism needs to be found, to “bind an oath”to the peace of the city and its institutions.

    Certain baptists do know how to justify their bigotry. It is no use trying to convince them as they have their messiah.

    I accept what you are saying about sensitivity. I have been blunt and heavy handed. For this I apologise and will try to keep in check.
    Yours Faithfully,
    Nicholas Battaliou

  26. The Koran burning pastor and the subsequent UN attack in Afghanistan are typical of the inability ot these radicalised giants being able to speak to one another. This was the same in David and solomon’s time, as Egypt and Mesopotamia required a transaction law, based on fairness, to transact the deals and resolve disputes. Again, this is the role that the modern Jewish people have to fulfill in our times, as respected interpreters of law. Central to this will have to be a symbolic “place” of meeting, a specific point of reference, agreed to by all parties. That place is Temple Mount as there is no other that shares the same meaning for all three identities. If Judasim can share its knowledge, its scriptural wealth and interpretive wisdom with these giants, there is the ability to pacify them and bring them to order.