BDS

Muslim supporter of Israel blasts Scottish BDS advocate, Jim Bollan


This is an email sent by a British Muslim supporter of Israel named Kasim Hafeez (see his bio below), to Jim Bollan, West Dunbartonshire Council member and fierce proponent of his council’s boycott of all Israeli goods. It is being posted here with Mr. Hafeez’s permission:

Subject: Scottish Council Israel boycott

From: Kasim Hafeez

To: James.Bollan@west-dunbarton.gov.uk

Date: Friday, 3 June, 2011, 10:12


Dear Mr. Bollan

I hope you are well today.

I’d like to ask for some clarification regarding your remarks to Stephen Franklin on the 31st May claiming  that Hamas are “Freedom Fighter”.  As a Muslim I find this comment absolutely sickening.

If I could just draw your attention to certain articles contained in the Hamas charter, their calls for the establishment of a Palestinian state over the current state of Israel, their repeated call for violence against Israeli civilians,  firing rockets in to Israeli towns, and walking Fatah members off roof tops during their takeover of the territory:  Surely you cannot in all good conscience believe Hamas are freedom fighters.

You have stated that “It is the Israeli State that practices apartheid.”

Apartheid is defined as:

1. An official policy of racial segregation formerly practiced in the Republic of South Africa, involving political, legal, and economic  discrimination against non-whites.

2. A policy or practice of separating or segregating groups.

3. The condition of being separated from others; segregation

You show a blatant ignorance to situation on the ground in Israel and play the rather silly game of wanting to use buzz words to emphasise your point.

If Israel is an “apartheid state” Why are their Arabs in all facets of Israeli society, the Judiciary, parliament, the military and the civil service?  Or would you like to causally over look that fact as it does not fit in to the narrative that you would like to put across to promote your racist and immoral boycott of the only democracy in the Middle East?

You talk of the Arab uprisings.  Have you not considered that Arabs in Israel have not taken part in any uprisings because the Israeli democracy safe guard’s their rights, and, as UN statistics have shown, for instance, that Israel’s Arabs indeed have the highest literacy rates of Arabs anywhere in the Middle East.

The shocking hypocrisy of a boycott against Israel is all too apparent, I hear no calls for a boycott against Saudi Arabia which suppresses the rights of all minorities even of Muslims from other sects.  Why is there no boycott of Iran who still use stoning as a punishment?  One must question what your agenda really is.  And, please, spare me your stock reply of being a humanitarian, as wouldn’t, if that was indeed the cases, boycotting China over its oppressive policies (or any number of totalitarian regimes in the world) be in order if that was the case? 

My sympathies go to the citizens of West Dumbartonshire Council who, unfortunately, have in office some who are more concerned with praising Hamas than actually improving the life of their constituents.

One would hope for peace in the Middle East between nations and the establishment of a Palestinian state next to Israel, but as long as people like yourself, who have the luxury of going home and not having to deal with the conflict day-to-day, create further barriers to dialogue by praising terrorists a resolution will just get further away.

Kasim

Kasim Hafeez’s Bio:

Growing up in a Muslim family in England I was subjected to the drip of anti-Semitic and anti-Zionist propaganda.  I found myself developing fiercely anti- Israel sentiments in my teen years and was convinced that Israel was always wrong.   It was not until I read the ‘Case for Israel’ by Alan Dershowitz did I start to have doubts about my own beliefs about the conflict.  I decided to visit Israel for myself to get a perspective on the situation on the ground and it truly changed my life.  In Israel I found a flourishing democracy, a modern state which guaranteed freedom for all its citizens, where all Muslim’s, Christians and Jews worshiped freely and minorities played an active role in society. It felt like home.  

After returning to the UK I began to research extensively and came to my own conclusion on the matter, and since then I have been proud to call myself a Zionist, and an advocate for Israel.  I feel it’s necessary to educate people about the real Israel and not let them be led by the same lies and inflammatory rhetoric which once governed my views.  I am currently working on a campaign to this effect.  

If we believe in democracy, freedom and truth when it comes to the Middle East we must speak up for Israel.

-KH

61 replies »

    • In response to mostly harmless, I was asked to provide a bio. Why is it anyone who differs from the narrative you take as fact, is deluded and there is no negotiation just what you say and nothing else. People in democracys should express and be open to debate regardless of religion etc. I defined my own world by what I have seen and experienced, may shock you but people do have their own views, whether you agree or not and its not all a conspiracy

    • mr harmful

      I see the truth hurts does it?

      You are as much a shit-stirrer as Kasim is a peacemaker. You shame yourself.

  1. Thank you Yitzhak and thank you Adam for posting this. Please feel free to follow me on twitter. The campaign to demonise Israel in Europe is in full swing, we have to fight back and let Israel and the Jewish people know you are not alone.
    Thank you

  2. Well said, Kasim – on all counts :-))

    The nature of Hamas appears to be misogynistic, genocidal, homophobic, war-mongering, dictatorial. child-abusing and of course, anti-semitic.

    Boycotts aside, here we have seven very good reasons why councils should keep their noses out of foreign policy. They may find themselves supporting ideals very different to the ones their electorate assume they hold.

  3. Bravo Kasim! Whether Mr Bollan is prepared to be or even capable of being influenced by rational argument is another matter. People who claim that Israel is an “apartheid state” would seem not to be. And those who reckon that Hamas are “freedom fighters” are shameless apologists for terror.

  4. Kasim

    Thank you very very much for this. You are a credit to yourself, your family and your faith.

  5. The simple fact is that Hamas ha killed far more Muslims than Jews.

    Perhaps Jimmie Bollock just admires bloodletting.

  6. If my printer was working I think I’d send the Council a copy of the Hamas Charter, and, if I knew how to make them, copies of online videos which clearly show how the minds of children are indoctrinated into hatred and violence. If Dunbarton Council is not disgusted by infants spouting jihadist poetry and year old babies wearing military gear complete with mock suicide belts around their tiny waists then they are beyond reason.

    I’d also send a video or two of the speeches made by Hamas’ political leaders – particularly Yunis al -Astal

    Oh, and a few copies of ‘Pallywood’ might not go amiss!

  7. Well said Mr Hafeez I hope your well written mail gives the jumped up little bigot something to think about.
    I won’t hold my breath though.

  8. Kasim Hafeez is following in a long and honourable tradition best exemplified by the 19 Arab families who saved 435 Jews from death in Hebron in 1929 and Khaled Abd al-Wahab who hid 25 Jews on his farm in Tunisia during the Holocaust. Nor should we forget the 29 imams of Algeria who issued a religous ruling prohibiting Muslims from participating in schemes to acquire property stolen from Jews by the Nazis and their accomplices.

    Kasim Hafeez is no less our friend and brother than the most righteous and courageous Jew.

  9. Wow can I just say a heartfelt thank you for all your kind words and support I am genuinely touched. Natalie a visit to Israel is well overdue for me so I may be there soon, thank you for the invite. But to all of you thank you for your kind words, my support for Israel transcends my religion, I belive in doing the right thing and standing by Israel is the right thing. Shabbat Shalom

  10. Well said Kasim. You’ve taken a brave stand, to say all this in the face of hostility from many of your own (by your admission) co-religionists towards Israel and Jews, is brave.

    The campaign to demonise Israel in Europe is indeed in full swing and once again it is emanating from the left, only now they like to call themselves progressives and not National Sociaists.

    James Bollan is a fool, a dangerous one at that.

  11. Kasim – thank you for your bravery. People like you are a real light in the darkness and give hope not just for the Middle East, but for the UK too.

  12. Kasim: A phrase I am sure you will hear a lot if you go to Israel, if you have not already heard it: Kol Hakavod, respect!

  13. Mr. Hafeez,
    You cannot pick and choose your definition of Apartheid to suit your point. If you want to speak the truth then give the entire UN definition of the crime of Apartheid. Here it is (apologies to readers about the length):

    For the purpose of the present Convention, the term “the crime of apartheid”, which shall include similar policies and practices of racial segregation and discrimination as practised in southern Africa, shall apply to the following inhuman acts committed for the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group of persons over any other racial group of persons and systematically oppressing them:

    (a) Denial to a member or members of a racial group or groups of the right to life and liberty of person:

    (i) By murder of members of a racial group or groups;

    (ii) By the infliction upon the members of a racial group or groups of serious bodily or mental harm, by the infringement of their freedom or dignity, or by subjecting them to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment;

    (iii) By arbitrary arrest and illegal imprisonment of the members of a racial group or groups;

    (b) Deliberate imposition on a racial group or groups of living conditions calculated to cause its or their physical destruction in whole or in part;

    (c) Any legislative measures and other measures calculated to prevent a racial group or groups from participation in the political, social, economic and cultural life of the country and the deliberate creation of conditions preventing the full development of such a group or groups, in particular by denying to members of a racial group or groups basic human rights and freedoms, including the right to work, the right to form recognized trade unions, the right to education, the right to leave and to return to their country, the right to a nationality, the right to freedom of movement and residence, the right to freedom of opinion and expression, and the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association;

    d) Any measures including legislative measures, designed to divide the population along racial lines by the creation of separate reserves and ghettos for the members of a racial group or groups, the prohibition of mixed marriages among members of various racial groups, the expropriation of landed property belonging to a racial group or groups or to members thereof;

    (e) Exploitation of the labour of the members of a racial group or groups, in particular by submitting them to forced labour;

    (f) Persecution of organizations and persons, by depriving them of fundamental rights and freedoms, because they oppose apartheid.

    Now argue with me that Israel does not fit this definition towards occupied Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza, towards Palestinian refugees in the diaspora, and towards Palestinian citizens of Israel? Since you only dealt with the latter and ignored the former two segments of Palestinian society, I will simply deal here with Palestinian citizens of Israel. There are over 20 laws against Palestinian citizens based on the fact that they are not Jewish – they have restrictions on marriage, on land purchase, on job opportunities, and education. All based on their ethnicity. That we can vote or serve in Parliament is a smart Israeli tactic so that people such as yourself can claim Israel is a democracy. But this is a sad zionist myth. There is one Arab justice minister in the entire history of the state, and this minister is a maronite. Maronites have been traditionally sympathetic to Israel as a Jewish-Zionist state that leaves no space for Arabs. To use this person as a token to say that Israel is a bastion of tolerance seems a bit disingenuous, don’t you think?
    Palestinian citizens of Israel have not taken part in the fervor of uprisings (yet) because we face a different beast. We face a colonial apartheid state with unconditional support from the US. Our calculation of fear is quite different.

    • Thanks for your opinion Joe, isn’t beautiful that we live in a democracy where views of all sorts can be expressed without fear of repression. I did not i nfact choose the definition for my own point I took it from a British History textbook as it was short and concise, appropriate for e-mail.

      Now looking at the definition of the crime of apartheid your presented and its points:

      (a) Denial to a member or members of a racial group or groups of the right to life and liberty of person:

      (i) By murder of members of a racial group or groups; *Now here your making me ridiculous claim, denial of life? Really are you insinuating genocide against the Arabs? We all know this is not true, and your perpetuating a myth which is both libelous and dangerous*

      (ii) By the infliction upon the members of a racial group or groups of serious bodily or mental harm, by the infringement of their freedom or dignity, or by subjecting them to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment; *Again who libelous claim, there is a conflict going on and unfortunately there are innocent victims on both sides, the difference Israel does not target civilians and Hamas make it their prime intention, you want to talk about infringement to freedom, FREE GILAD SHALIT*

      (iii) By arbitrary arrest and illegal imprisonment of the members of a racial group or groups; *Israel as a nation of law’s gives people a right to appeal etc, is that the same in HAMAS occupied GAZA

      (b) Deliberate imposition on a racial group or groups of living conditions calculated to cause its or their physical destruction in whole or in part; *If your referring to house demolitions, then in any democracy if you don’t have the correct permits then you won’t be allowed to build, like here in the UK*

      (c) Any legislative measures and other measures calculated to prevent a racial group or groups from participation in the political, social, economic and cultural life of the country and the deliberate creation of conditions preventing the full development of such a group or groups, in particular by denying to members of a racial group or groups basic human rights and freedoms, including the right to work, the right to form recognized trade unions, the right to education, the right to leave and to return to their country, the right to a nationality, the right to freedom of movement and residence, the right to freedom of opinion and expression, and the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association; *Okay really? Your showing a shocking naivety to the issues, please have a look at the various democracy indexes, which will give you an idea of the political freedoms*

      d) Any measures including legislative measures, designed to divide the population along racial lines by the creation of separate reserves and ghettos for the members of a racial group or groups, the prohibition of mixed marriages among members of various racial groups, the expropriation of landed property belonging to a racial group or groups or to members thereof; *Ghetto’s??? Again this is a real skewing of the facts, no doubt your integrated the settlement issue in to this, I’ve visited settlements with Arab populations living right next to them, prohibition of marriage, civil issues such as marriage are dealt by the Religious authorities of the individual religions. Division of populations, have you visited Haifa??**

      (e) Exploitation of the labour of the members of a racial group or groups, in particular by submitting them to forced labour;
      **Forced labour, when, where? Isn’t true the Palestinian workers union implored against the boycott as it would affect them, and they receive better pay in Israel**

      (f) Persecution of organizations and persons, by depriving them of fundamental rights and freedoms, because they oppose apartheid.
      *This doesn’t apply, as their is no apartheid system. It is i stress a democracy and as much as possible Israel tries to make sure rights are re respected, while defending all its citizens from terror*

      Now the 20 laws against Palestinians, this was first quoted in a report by Adalah, which are funded by the New Israel Fund(apartheid, really?) Most of the laws don’t really affect day to day living they are more to do with the defining Israel as a Jewish state, such as Pakistan has laws in defining itself as an Islamic state, lets not go in to the rest of the Arab worlds shocking discriminatory laws, some banning Jews to enter.
      The issue of national service has caused some barriers for Arabs, as some do not take part, thus the Israeli government like any state accepting there are problems and taking steps to address this with the voluntary service campaign so they can volunteer in non military fields.

      There are Israeli Arabs who have played a prominent part in all facets in all of Israeli society, do the Druze not volunteer to serve in the IDF, and there have been Muslims Arabs in supreme court Abdel Rahman Zuabi, Ismail Khalidi is a Bedouin Muslim and is in the civil service, numerous members of the Knesset from independence. And know to quote Amnesty International, Most of the Arabs living in East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights, occupied by Israel since the Six-Day War of 1967, were offered Israeli citizenship, but refused, not wanting to recognize Israeli sovereignty. They became permanent residents. They are entitled to municipal services and have voting rights. They refuse to recognise the state yet they still are given rights, Fatah members who refused to accept Hamas in the election we’re walked off roof tops if i remembered rightly. I admit Israel is not perfect as most democracies are not, but the difference is they are striving to improve the lot of all citizens this is not the case anywhere in the region. If people really want peace they would work towards strengthening Palestinian institutions and helping them move away from the incitement in their education, but no it makes more headlines to use statements like Apartheid Israel and other slanders. Maybe its time for people who claim to be pro-Palestinian to do more for Palestinians then to use it as veil to be Anti-Israeli, I just hope we can come to middle ground where everything or anyone who wants to see things from even a slightly pro-Israeli view is being blinded by Zionist propaganda and anything Palestinian is fact without anything to back it up.

      Sorry for the length of this but i wanted to address all the points let me finish with this quote:

      “Israel has proved that for 50 years its real power is its democracy, guarding the rights to its citizens , applying laws [equally] to the rich and poor, the big and small…and in the participation of the nation in the development of institutions according to ability and efficiency and not according to closeness to [the ruler]” – Columnist Dr. Talal Al Shareef, Palestinian newspaper Al-Quds, May 27, 1999

    • Joe

      In your desperation to see the apartheid label slapped on israel you are totally blind to the conditions that preface the piece you yourself have copied in your piece.

      They imply the term ‘apartheid’ is not valid unless you can demonstrate that israel:

      “practices racial segregation and discrimination … FOR THE PURPOSE OF establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group of persons over another racial group … ”

      It is only the hardened enemies of israel who are unwilling to concede that it’s actions are driven by the fight for survival among sworn enemies who are determined to destroy their country and kill jews at every opportunity.

      The palestinian arabs in the WB and gaza strip are not israeli citizens. Nor are the palestinian refugees in lebanon, syria, jordan. It is neither here nor there that jews in those locations have NO rights at all – however, the term ‘apartheid’ could only apply to the political and social relationship between israeli jews and israeli non-jews. You have the opportunity to make your case:

      1. State your indictments under each clause a) to f) above.

      2. In each case outline the evidence for concluding that the acts were
      inhuman and were committed FOR THE PURPOSE OF establishing and
      maintaining domination by one racial group over another.

      I won’t be holding my breath for your response.

      The fact that there is no “arab spring” in israel is no doubt extremely embarrassing for you but the assertion that it hasn’t happened is because you “face a colonial apartheid state with unconditional support from the US” is laughable. You can’t even bring yourself to consider the more plausible explanation which is that the poor sods in the arab world are fighting for the kind of democratic freedoms israeli arabs enjoy already – and however much they might support your despicable agenda, they are in no hurry to chuck them away.

    • Skol, Joe. I appreciate your confirming that Sweden is to be regarded as an apartheid state. The rights of Jews there are regularly suppressed, including the right to freedom of opinion and expression, witness the years-long repressive pro-Palestinian, goings-on in Malmo that have been driving Jews out of the city and Leila Khaled’s current state-funded speaking engagements, the PFLP being a terrorist organisation. The government’s inaction and what it chooses to do constitute an apartheid crime under article c).

  14. Joe:

    How about providing specific examples of categories a to f to bolster your contention? The kind of generalities used by you and others, your opponents included, lacks conviction.

  15. I am a proud Scottish Nationalist and an Equally proud Friend and Supporter is Israel.

    We have been hijacked by an idiot lefty no brain who basis his decisions on the middle east by watching reports made by Islamist reporters. Anyone who cannot accept terrorists who encourage beheadings babies as scum is beyond reasonable argument.

    Far left political types exist within the SNP on the fringe ad It is a broad political grouping of Scottish Independence supporters. I am totally ashamed to have such idiots in my political party. I am disgusted at them dangling out the only Jewish country for a Boycot.

    Some lefty people just love a bit of victimhood propaganda. It’s fashionable to be pro Palestinian amongst these uninformed political failures.

    Most Europeans are fed a constant diet of Anti Israel propaganda from AP and journalists who have been students at our anti Israel Universities.

    I do knot know a single pro Palestine person on real life. Not a single friend is pro islamist, not a single sympathy for Hamas yet our media are constantly promoting this view. Our spineless politicians constantly dancing around this view.

    Let me spell it out. If you love equality .freedom, education, democracy, choice in marriage and sexuality, value life, laws, justicr, technological advances, friendship and a society that rewards merit, study, endeavour and honour. Choose ISRAEL

    If you want women as possessions, marriage at 6 years, murder for rape victims, honour killings, suicide bombs, global Jihad, killing gays, no education, living like Gael ages, killing all rivals, Killing all Jews, killing al.Christians, killing women who defy husband, rape & violence within marriage, planes flying into buildings, buses blowing up, trains exploding and a nuclear armed islamist threat and beheading babies choose West Dumbarton Council & Hamas.

    • @A2Mac, Nice post. More power to you.

      “It’s fashionable to be pro Palestinian amongst these uninformed political failures.”

      I would guess that the fashionable eurotrash pro-paleswinians are NOT uninformed, but choose to side with islamofascism despite the facts.

      Any quess as to why?

  16. @A2Mac good post.

    I would add to your final paragraph, “If you want…. to be led by the nose by idiots who choose dhimmitude by default because of their ignorance, which is worse than dhimmitude by force of arms, to sleepwalk into theocratic tyranny and to be hypocritical by ignoring Islamist abuses of the human rights of their own people …….choose West Dunbarton Council and Hamas”

  17. It is remarkable that a Muslim can go to Israel and find this reality and Harriet Sherwood can go there and to her the reality of this man is invisible. She can find a tragedy like the boys burned by the bomb but not a word about literacy rates, press freedom (which she surely takes part in as she is invariably critical of all things Israeli), or freedom of worship. No doubt the truth lies somewhere between an Israeli Utopia and the antebellum south in the US but surely it is closer to the former. My question is does she see this reality and refuse to acknowledge it or does she actually not see it at all. My question to myself is “which answer would I prefer”? I honestly don’t know.

  18. Joe – Go to Israel.

    I would remind you that the Germans were a cultured, educated people and yet they fell for propaganda. Try not to do the same.

  19. You people live in parallel worlds. Humanitarian activists are terrorists, peace is further land expropriation, and siege is security concerns. So I have no desire to waste my time with extremists. Here is a quick and brief run down just so you don’t say I ran away (although you will nevertheless):

    (a) Denial to a member or members of a racial group or groups of the right to life and liberty of person: Gaza siege; 1948 expulsion (2 of many examples – the Palestinians left before the Arabs declared war, so spare me your myths on that one and read your history)

    (i) By murder of members of a racial group or groups; *race is of course defined not just in terms of black or white, by the UN. Israeli Jews do not kill other Israeli Jews but they do kill Palestinians last I checked – the determining factor is race, or ethnicity in this case. But as I said, the UN defines race to include ethnicity and religion*

    (ii) By the infliction upon the members of a racial group or groups of serious bodily or mental harm, by the infringement of their freedom or dignity, or by subjecting them to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment; *You say Gilad Shalit, but there are over 10,000 Palestinian prisoners, and their are several Palestinian citizens of Israel in prison (Amir Makhoul is one)* Makhoul has been subjected to torture.

    (iii) By arbitrary arrest and illegal imprisonment of the members of a racial group or groups; *see above

    (b) Deliberate imposition on a racial group or groups of living conditions calculated to cause its or their physical destruction in whole or in part; *I wasn’t referring to house demolitions, but thank you. It is not the same as the UK. This is what I mean by parallel extremist realities that you live in. I was referring to Arab communities in Israel that are subjected to different laws THAT DO AFFECT THEIR EVERYDAY LIVES. How obnoxious of you to pretend to know what affects their lives! They receive different levels of funding, their education is curtailed through laws, etc. etc. Yes, read the Adalah reports. Their source of funding is actually a smart way for the Israeli government to create an appearance of your democracy so that you can make your nonsensical arguments.*

    (c) Any legislative measures and other measures calculated to prevent a racial group or groups from participation in the political, social, economic and cultural life of the country and the deliberate creation of conditions preventing the full development of such a group or groups, in particular by denying to members of a racial group or groups basic human rights and freedoms, including the right to work, the right to form recognized trade unions, the right to education, the right to leave and to return to their country, the right to a nationality, the right to freedom of movement and residence, the right to freedom of opinion and expression, and the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association; *Here I was called naive and asked to look at democracy indicators. Seriously? That is too funny. Even the US State department human rights report has said that Israel practices institutionalized discrimination (that is part of the definition of apartheid). Please note the part here that says RIGHT TO RETURN TO THEIR COUNTRY. Israel is an apartheid state for not allowing Palestinians to return to their country.

    d) Any measures including legislative measures, designed to divide the population along racial lines by the creation of separate reserves and ghettos for the members of a racial group or groups, the prohibition of mixed marriages among members of various racial groups, the expropriation of landed property belonging to a racial group or groups or to members thereof; *You took one word from this sentence, “ghetto” and forgot the rest. yes, there are Jewish only communities in Israel. But more importantly is the expropriation of land through the settlements, but also by the fact that Arab citizens in Israel are not allowed back to their original villages. In some cases they can see the village but are not allowed to go and live in it despite it being uninhabited or a military zone.

    (e) Exploitation of the labour of the members of a racial group or groups, in particular by submitting them to forced labour;
    **Labor laws discriminate against Arabs although there is no forced labor because Israeli jews have relied on migrant workers**

    (f) Persecution of organizations and persons, by depriving them of fundamental rights and freedoms, because they oppose apartheid.
    *Well, exiling Azmi Beshara is one example. Now you will just dismiss him as a terrorist. But that is exactly part of the apartheid practices, so welcome to that club*

    FINALLY, I have wasted enough time giving you an example for each article when i didn’t have to. For Israel to qualify under the definition of apartheid it need not fit every single article. Israel is not only an apartheid state, it is also a settler colonial state at a time when the world rejects colonialism as a political practice – sorry Israel, you should have done this 200 years ago. It is also an occupying power.

    Your comparison to other Arab countries falls on deaf ears. The people in other Arab countries have been dying (literally) to rise up for decades. Moral and decent people around the world have always supported this rising up. You seem to be unable to support the rise against the Israeli regime on the other hand, and your only defense for Israel is to set it up against terrible regimes like China or Saudi Arabia – what a benchmark! You are too extreme in your blindness and hatred of other values and people, and for that you will find any excuse to defend Israel (and by you I mean most people who commented on this page). In doing so you jeopardize the lives of both Arabs and Jews in that region. They are one people that can live together, but with your extreme and racist views backed up by the world powers and their money, there will only be more destruction. I pity the reality you live in.

  20. PS. Israel practices apartheid in relation to the Palestinians in the diaspora (no right of return), to palestinians in the west bank and Gaza (I mentioned some examples), and to Palestinian citizens in Israel. My examples referred to apartheid in relation to different segments. Not all articles apply to all segments of Palestinians. I made clear that not all points need to fit in order for the definition to fit the situation. This should all have been clear, but noting it again just in case (most likely all this will go in one ear and out the other anyway).

  21. Joe, you have raised a whole number of points, so I’m going to respond in separate comments to as many as I have time for.

    You people live in parallel worlds. Humanitarian activists are terrorists, peace is further land expropriation, and siege is security concerns.

    I think it’s true that you and I live in parallel worlds, but I don’t think it’s you who’s living in the real one. Which “humanitarian activists” are you referring to? The ISM people in Gaza who gave Asif Hanif and Omar Sharif the explosives to blow up Mike’s Bar? The people on the Mavi Marmara who declared, before they sailed, that they wanted to be shahids and, as can be clearly seen on videos and in photos, were armed with metal bars and knives and immediately attacked the Israeli boarding party as they landed on the deck.

    Of course, if you believe that walking into a pub in Tel Aviv and blowing yourself up is a humanitarian act, not terrorism, them perhaps you’re right.

    Land expopriation:
    What land expropriation would that be? In the last few years Israel has withdrawn completely from Lebanon and from Gaza. That’s not to mention the withdrawal about three decades ago from the entire Sinai Peninsula (which included giving up the oil fields that Israel had developed there).

    Siege:
    I gather you’re referring to Gaza. Please explain to me in what other “siege” in history has the party laying siege allowed in truckloads of food, medicine, building supplies–and allowed out hundreds of people a week for free medical treatment in the hospitals of the beseiging country?

    And in what other besieged area do they open new multi-storey malls and luxury hotels? And go horseback riding on the beach? etc. etc. etc.

    Not to mention the missile fire from Gaza into Israel. The levels go up and down but never go down to zero. You did hear about the laser-guided anti-tank missle that was aimed at a yellow school bus, didn’t you? Is that, in your eyes, the work of “humanitarian activists”?

  22. (a) Denial to a member or members of a racial group or groups of the right to life and liberty of person: Gaza siege; 1948 expulsion

    Say what??! The surrounding Arab countries tried to kill Israel at birth and those pesky Jews had the temerity to refuse to be killed–and in your eyes that’s denying Palestinians the right to life and liberty of person?! As for the Gaza “siege”–I believe I’ve addressed that above. If Gazans would stop trying to kill Israelis, and if their leaders (democratically elected, as is frequently pointed out) would stop declaring that their aim is to remove Israel from existence and kill the Jews, then Israel would no longer need to worry about heavy weapons entering the Gaza strip.

  23. Israeli Jews do not kill other Israeli Jews but they do kill Palestinians last I checked

    What the heck are you babbling about?

  24. You say Gilad Shalit, but there are over 10,000 Palestinian prisoners, and their are several Palestinian citizens of Israel in prison

    All Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails get visits from the Red Cross, as well as medical treatment, access to education, etc. Samir Kuntar–you remember, the brave “humanitarian activist” who bashed in the head of a little girl with his rifle butt on the beach at Nahariya–got a degree in Social and Political Science from the Open University of Israel during his time in prison. He was also married for a while to an Israeli (what you would call “a Palestinian citizen of Israel”) and while they were married she received a government stipend (in other words, money from Israeli taxpayers) as the wife of a prisoner.

    Slightly different from the situation of Gilad Shalit, who has not had one single visit from the Red Cross, and whose family have no idea of his state of health or even whether he’s still alive.

  25. Arab communities in Israel that are subjected to different laws

    Bullshit.

    One could make the argument that there are cases of institutional inequality, but to say they are subjected to different laws is just an out and out lie.

  26. Israel is an apartheid state for not allowing Palestinians to return to their country

    Oh give me a break–how come the only conflict in the world in which displaced people (and their children, and their children’s children, and their children’s children’s children) think they are entitled to return to where they used to live (which at the time was not “their” country at all) is the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. Let me amend that: Only ONE SIDE of that conflict–there’s no talk of allowing Israelis of Iraqi, Moroccan, Yemeni, Egyptian (etc.) descent returning to those countries, or even getting compensation for the property they left behind.

    And how about Pakistan and India? India was partitioned at about the same time as Mandatory Palestine, and resulted in a far greater displacement of populations and a far greater death toll. But I don’t hear any talk of Pakistan being an “apartheid” state (one could make a far better argument in the case of Pakistan than in the case of Israel) or of being “illegitimate” or a mistake that should be rectified.

  27. Your comparison to other Arab countries falls on deaf ears

    OK, I’m going to make a statement that you won’t like, but it’s true:

    Israel isn’t perfect, but it is as good as any other country in the world (including Switzerland, Canada, the UK… ) and better (in many cases, MUCH better) than most other countries. And that’s while living in a very tough neighourhood, facing challenges that most of the “civilized” world don’t face.

  28. cba, I’m going to nominate you for Israel’s Prime Minister, Defense Minister, Foreign Minister or Ambassador to the UN. Or possibly all of them.

    Kol hakavod and bravo for your excellent replies.

  29. Cba, awesome deconstruction of Joe’s arguments, some people refuse to want to see the facts and will use the label of extremist if they have no real argument

  30. And notice how anything positive by the Israeli government to help the Arabs is seen as an Israeli trick?? With that attitude what can Israel do??

    • Thank you to both you and annieinpt. And yes, Kasim, I’ve noticed that a lot. Even Israel’s humanitarian aid missions are somehow turned into something evil by the haters–witness the vicious rumours about Israel’s aid to Haiti.

  31. This is what I mean. There were those who defended slavery and then segregation in the USA. There were those who defended Nazis. There were those who defended apartheid South Africa. There were those who defended colonialism. There were those who defended the Turkish-Greek expulsions. The list goes on. These people lived in another reality where all these systems were moral and deserved defense. You fit nicely into these category of people, so what can I say. If I don’t live in this reality then I must be blessed.

    Two responses I loved were: “what the heck are you babbling about” Yes, that’s a wonderful and clear response deserving for your nomination of Israeli PM as another person said. And the other is when you said there is institutional inequality but no difference in laws. Institutionalized inequality means exactly this, that there are laws that make the inequality institutionalized. Again, go do some reading before you tell me there are no separate laws. One of many is the right of return law which allows Jews to return but not Arabs. There are many others.

    Oh, and not to mention another country where displaced people were allowed to return, but Germany both compensated Jews after the war and has allowed German Jews to return. Many (about 100,000) have even gotten German citizenship but of course, many might still prefer to live in Israel. There are other examples but this one just shows the irony as you attempt to spin your reality.

    • There were those who defended Nazis.

      Correct, and their ideological inheritors do the same today defending Hamas, Hezb’allah and other Palestinian organisations falsely accusing the Jews with ethnic cleansing, aapartheid etc. You are one of them obviously Joe.

    • Your final paragraph refers, Joe.

      I must point out to you since you insist on giving that example, that the Germans accepted that they were conquered (which the Arabs refuse to do) and they signed a surrender and there was a long period during which they were demilitarised and occupied by the Allies. It is only after a period of regulation that the conditions you quote obtain in Germany.

      So I recommend first that the Arabs should admit that the Israelis conquered them and that they should sign a surrender and then agree to a demilitarised peace. Give it a few years and normal relations might be possible, though I doubt it.

  32. And yes, the people on the Mavi Marmara is who I meant. Kids throwing stones are also terrorist. Oh, of course not when they are throwing stones in Egypt or Syria. Then they are peaceful activists in search of freedom. How do you do it? How do you convince yourselves of this? I want to be on whatever it is you are on!

    • And yes, the people on the Mavi Marmara is who I meant.

      Your kind of peace activists singing Khaybar, khaybar.

      Kids throwing stones are also terrorist.

      No they are not terrorists only the adults who send them and put them in the harms way with your support. This you again Joe.

      How do you convince yourselves of this?

      We don’t need to be convinced because we can see the events with our own eyes and let us to be influenced by hard facts and not get our info from the Guardian, Stormfront and other anti-Jewish rags and not blinded by hate like yourself.

      I want to be on whatever it is you are on!

      But you can’t Joe because of your deeply rooted jealousy of the success of Israel and its citizens.

  33. Joe this is getting embarrassing, you provide no coherent arguments, everything is an Israeli trick or Zionist conspiracy. So they’ve fooled everyone!! Including the NGO’s who rank Israel as a top 10 democracy! Who rejected the 2 state soloution??? Who fled waiting for the Jewish state to be destroyed? Thus hostile to the state they claim right of return to! Also why us the Palestinian refugee issue treat differently to all others, I don’t get it, right of return for the descendants? That makes no sense! Before you drop the right of return for Jews….Pakistan absorbed any Muslims that wanted to become Pakistani and not indian during partition. Put hey it’s a all a Zionist trick?

  34. Institutionalized inequality means exactly this, that there are laws that make the inequality institutionalized.

    I was thinking of cases such as benefits for army veterans, which, since many Arabs don’t serve (although increasing numbers do), tend to discriminate against the Arab sector. (Also against the Haredi sector, for the same reason.) However, do you REALLY advocate conscripting Arabs into the Israeli army?

    I like the idea of mandatory national service, whether in the IDF or community service, for everyone, with the same benefits as army veterans get today. Of course, were that to happen then you’d come up with some other reason to hate Israel.

    As for giving citizenship to any Jew who requests it, unless you are a complete ignoramus you have to be aware of the historical reasons for that.

  35. Who said trick? I like how you try to change the argument. I also like how I don’t provide coherent arguments. Whereas “bullshit” was considered a very coherent response for all of you. There is no trick. You’ll just keep coming out with falsities. Like the one you mentioned so casually where Palestinians fled waiting for the Jewish state to be destroyed. The history books will show you how the fleeing began well before any declaration of war by 5 countries, all of whom had no proper standing armies, and one of which was actually colluding with the zionists (the Hashemites). But still, you will now come back and tell me the “fledgling Israeli state was fighting for its existence against 5 powerful Arab countries coming to eat it up.” Spare me the victimization…

    • Hebron massacres? Anti-Jewish riots? Hajj Amin Husseini collision with the Nazis, setting up SS units in the balakans, when Balkan Muslim leaders told their ppl to resist his call. All this ore-dated the establishment of Israel, did it not? Well you seem to only want to read one type of history book Joe, one that says your right, I don’t agree with everything israel does, but I can protest it being a democracy, where as a gay man like myself would be killed anywhere else in the region

  36. Joe:
    All these conditions you have given were practised by the Arab states against the Jews living there and many of them are still practised against the Palestinians, stateless, nameless, identity-less beings, used when convenient and thrown out on their ears when doing so serves their purpose.

    Here is one example of how wrong are the myths that you attempt to foist off on us. 1948 expulsion (2 of many examples – the Palestinians left before the Arabs declared war, so spare me your myths on that one and read your history) This is the truth of Deir Yassin and how the lies of the Arabs came back at them to kick them in their teeth and cause them to languish for 63 years so far, glorying in their own misery. http://www.youtube.com/v/GkhSHiwzaIY&hl=en_

  37. I read the works of your own zionists like benny Morris. I’m not interested in reading State propaganda. The Syrian regime also has books that says it is not so perfect, but is working on reforms. Why don’t we believe those ridiculous statements too then.

    Jordan, talk to gay Palestinians. I can put you in touch with them. I mean those living in Israel. They will tell you that without Palestinian rights, gay rights is a tool to rebrand Israel as some bastion of tolerance. That isn’t the way rights are supposed to work. Don’t let Israel off the hook because gay people can walk freely there. Gay people can walk freely in Lebanon. I’ve been to several gay pubs in Lebanon personally, as someone who is straight. I would not defend Lebanon as a bastion of tolerance though just because of this.

    • They will tell you that without Palestinian rights, gay rights is a tool to rebrand Israel as some bastion of tolerance.

      Very good. That Israel is a very tolerant democracy with equal rights for every citizen irrespective of gender, race, religion etc is only a veil to hide the devilish nature of the Jews. That Israel helps the victims of the Haiti eathquake is only a mean to secretly harvesting organs for implants.
      Benny Morris works based on well documented facts are state propaganda…

      Those satanically clever Jews…

      I mean those living in Israel. They will tell you that without Palestinian rights, gay rights is a tool to rebrand Israel as some bastion of tolerance.

      If they think so – did you ask them why they don’t go to live in free Gaza?

  38. Thank you kasim for posting this now, and all those who understand truth, justice and hope for a lasting peace stand with you regardless of race, religion and culture.

    But the next few months are going to be a major upheaval on all counts. As kasim said a massive wave of anti israel protests are about to begin with border protests, airport protests, through music and flotillas. The campaign of hate is organised by disparate pro palestinian groups and is connected to hamas. They have recruited a variety of celebs like coldplay to support their cause, all leading up to a UN vote in sept.

    Now there are probably very few people worldwide who really understand what is going on, and it seems that the pro palestinian activists are as clueless as the media. The reality is in fact so radically different to what you might hear that it is quite a game changer in world politics, but in essence is simplicity itself.

    To put it simply here, Israel as a state has the absolute and legally binding right of ownership of all the East & West Bank, including gaza and a section of what is now classed as Jordan on the other side of the river.
    All this about the 1967 borders is nonsense and irrelevant. As are the borders when the state was created. What is interesting here is to understand why Israel has yet to enforce those rights, and indeed why it and other states make sure that this gets no publicity.

    Now those who support the creation of a palestinian state may get angry and post against Israel but say what they want, it really doesn’t make a shred of difference. Even the security council with a full vote has no legal right to create a palestinian state. Now if the palestinian activists campaign all that they are really doing is sealing their own fate, they will in effect turn the israeli population totally against them and thus their govt.

    This is all that matters here because the only ones who can offer the palestinians a state are israel them selves as a gift. By using terrorism and pressure on Israel all that will happen is that it will force Israel into enforcing its full rights, which since its inception it has not done.

    It has been waiting patiently for a time when the palestinians were ready for peace and to abandon terror. Many times they have walked away from peace when it was offered and now in the next few months is their very last chance.

    The only way will be for them to abandon violence and relinquish all claim to lands. In doing that Israel will do what it has said it will do all along since 1948 and give the Palestinians a homeland. It may not be the one they desire or all the land they want but it will bring peace.

    If they continue their “struggle” they will be the bringers of their own demise, and Israel will take what is rightfully theirs in full legal title.

    At this point all the pro palestinian activists i imagine are swearing at me and accusing me of being a zionist pig or whatever, but what they don’t realise is that all that I have said is true and this is why, briefly.

    After the fall of the Ottoman empire in the 1920’s the major powers had to redistribute the lands and there were 2 claimants the arabs and the jews who wanted a homeland. They both put forward their cases, incidentally both supporting each other. The arabs made public statements saying that they fully supported zionism as it was a purely nationalistic enterprise, as opposed to an imperialistic one. Thus both claims were granted and there were then 2 mandates created at san remo. The arab mandate and the mandate for Palestine.

    Now if you read the palestine mandate it explains succinctly that its sole purpose is to create a homeland for the jewish people under defined borders which I mentioned earlier. There is no mention of arabs as there is a separate mandate for that entirely.

    Britain was appointed to implement the mandate. It could not change the mandate other than by the agreement of Israel or the jews who were the recipients. The British failed and to prevent civil war persuaded the jews to accept a partition to create a state of israel in peace. They thus signed the partition agreement. At this point the arabs refused to sign wanting all the land, not understanding i suppose what the mandate was or meant. Here we see the 1st time where Israel was willing to exchange its land in order for peace. The state of Israel was thus created. Remember though the arabs had not signed. The arab states then declared war and invaded from all sides.

    Israel was created thus with the borders of the partition but not that of the mandate which was much larger. The arabs by not signing had in effect made the creation in terms of the partition borders “non binding” thus Israel was not bound by them. It still in effect held full title to all the lands given to them in the mandate. If the arabs had signed the partition agreement a treaty or contract would have been created that would have superseded the mandate and Israel would have been legally bound to the 1948 borders. But that didn’t happen.

    International law is like any other, you cannot overrule a prior agreement to take away what has already been granted. And what is now crucial is what was granted at sam remo and laid out in the mandate. Any following resolutions from the league of nations or UN have no effect and are worthless. Even major ones like the right of self determination of a people is of no value here because it was enabled after the date of san remo and when the mandate for palestine was granted.

    So now you see any areas in the west bank that jews or Israelis live in or settlements are not occupied territory at all. There is no occupation, legally, it is up to them. If they are pushed like now there will come a time and bang they will just enforce the mandate.

    Now the reason they haven’t is because they are a tolerant democracy and they want a long and lasting peace, but this can only go on so long.
    It is also worth considering whether the palestinians actually really want a state at all, and whether if they know the legal situation, why carry on a struggle they cannot win unless its purpose is non other than to seek the absolute destruction of Israel through war.

    We shall see but one thing is for sure then next few months will be turbulent times.

  39. Well written article Kasim.

    I wouldn’t dream to say that Israel is perfect and I doubt anyone here is attempting to do so.
    What we are saying is that is could always attempt to get better.
    Sadly in the climate of the ME Israel is doing, against all odds, everything in its power to remain sane and do not unleash hell.

    Yes Joe,
    Things can go wrong when the power allows people to unleash hell.

    Do you know what the Farhood (Farhud)?
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-13610702

    Now keeping in mind the way many British officers really behaved prior to 1948 and on departing by handing over most fortified high ground to the Arabs I believe, as did they, that the Jews will be massacred.

    I do not think the British cared, at that time.

    The day out in the olympics was more important to them.

    The question to you is if Hamas and Fatah manage to restle control of Israel from the “Jews” what do you think will happen?

    Do you believe things will be better for the overall population?

    Do you believe there will not be a foreign intervention by states to gain foot hold in the territory?

    I tell you what will not happen.
    The condition of the majorities of the people in the rest of the region will not get better.
    Lybia will not become a demoicracy over night and gay clubs will not pop up in Saudi Arabia or Islamabad.

    Now put this into persepctive.
    BTW, that’s the same world view as Mr. Morris.

  40. Thank you Mr Kasim Hafeez for your honourable action

    You escaped the pro palestinian brainwashing process that makes you a brave man