Guardian

Moral abdication as principled thought: How the Guardian learned to love the bomb


The latest Guardian editorial on Iran’s efforts to develop a nuclear bomb, Iran: bolting the stable door, Nov. 9, can be summed up by these passages from their polemic:

“It really is time for Iran to drop the pretence that it is not on that path.”

“It really is time to drop the pretence that Iran can be deflected from its nuclear path.”

 “It really is time for the United States to recognise that there is no military solution.” 

“An attack on Iran would of course be madness.”

“And it really is time for both America and Israel to put aside the idea that they can stop history with high explosives, cyber-attacks, sanctions and assassinations.”

So, to sum up: Israel and the US – not to mention relatively moderate Arab Sunni allies who similarly fear Iranian hegemony in the region – should not only accept the inevitability of a nuclear Iran and completely rule out the use of force to prevent it, but even cease non-military pressure, such as economic sanctions and cyber-attacks.

Israel should just accept the inevitability that an enemy sworn to its destruction will acquire the means to carry out such designs.

We’ve often argued that one of the defining characteristics of Guardian Left thought is the condescending paternalism towards the Jewish state, as well as tendency to see Israel, the Palestinians, and the greater Arab world, not as state actors engaged in deadly serious conflict but, rather, as mere abstractions.

This paternalism is often expressed – both by the Guardian and other sage far left commentators who truly see their mission as “saving Israel from itself” – in the implicit, and often explicit, suggestion that Israel is too crippled by irrational fears to make sober political decisions.

Indeed, the most telling passage in the Guardian editorial is this:

“But both Israel and Iran have made a habit of distracting themselves from their most difficult problems by puffing up the spectre of external enemies.”

Leaving aside their signature moral equivalence, such a passage accurately conveys the Guardian’s moral indifference to the unrestrained malice of Israel’s enemies.

Evidently, the Jewish state puffs up the spectre of a Hamas regime committed to Israel’s destruction.

And, Israel evidently puffs up the spectre of Hezbollah, the heavily armed, Iranian-backed, Islamist movement – committed both to the Israel’s destruction and to the murder of Jews all over the world – which increasingly claims more of Lebanon under its yoke.

Regarding the latter, In 2002, Hezbollah’s Sheik Nasrallah was quoted by the Lebanon Daily Star as encouraging Jews to move to Israel. “If they all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide,” he said.

A previous Hezbollah statement was just as clear:

“It is an open war until the elimination of Israel and until the death of the last Jew on earth.”  

To the Guardian, the Jewish state’s fears that Hezbollah’s sponsors in Tehran repeatedly express similar genocidal aims is either an expression of the paranoia and profound pathos which informs Israeli political debate, or mere hyperbole and political theatrics.

Richard Landes characterizes “liberal cognitive egocentrism” as the projection of good faith and fair-mindedness onto others, the assumption that “others” share the same human values, that everyone prefers positive sum interactions.

“I’ll give up trying to dominate and trust you to give it up as well,” “if I’m nice to you, you will be nice in return,”

This is the fundamental moral fallacy which inspires such Guardian editorials, and, moreover, which increasingly excludes Israel from the progressive imaginative sympathy.   

Fortunately, unlike through most of history, Jews are no longer completely vulnerable to such hostility and indifference.

The moral imperative of Jewish sovereignty, and the projection of Jewish power, has never been clearer.

50 replies »

  1. Let’s play “count-the-lies”…

    1. “not to mention relatively moderate Arab Sunni allies who similarly fear Iranian hegemony in the region”

    Recent polls carried out by the Brookings institute of Arab public opinion found that 88% and 77% view Israel and the US as the biggest threats to their safety, whereas less than one in ten viewed Iran as a threat.

    In fact, 92% of Arabs across the “Arab world” thought Iran had a right to a nuclear program. When asked what the effect of an Iranian nuclear arsenal would be only a small minority thought it would be a negative effect (ranging from 6% to 29% depending on the country).

    2. “Israel should just accept the inevitability that an enemy sworn to its destruction will acquire the means to carry out such designs.”

    Whilst I’m-a-dinner-jacket has repeatedly lamented the existence of the Zionist regime, and wished to see its demise, Iran has not threatened the state of Israel, nor the Israeli people with military aggression. Israel, on the other hand, routinely threatens Iran with military action.

    3. “the unrestrained malice of Israel’s enemies”

    LOL. An Iranian might comment on the “unrestrained malice” of the Zionist regime. It’s a nonsense statement. Not really a lie, just indicative of a pathological inability to see things from another perspective.

    4. “Evidently, the Jewish state puffs up the spectre of a Hamas regime committed to Israel’s destruction.”

    Hamas is certainly committed to resisting Israel’s occupation, ethnic cleansing and land thefts, but are they committed to Israel’s destruction?

    When I come across such nationalism induced blindness, such willingness to believe, it at least offers some explanation for why racism is such a huge problem within Israeli nationalism.

    “The moral imperative of Jewish sovereignty, and the projection of Jewish power, has never been clearer.”

    That, is a terrifying statement. Ethno-theocracy. Might is right. What next? Wearing white sheets and lynching Arabs? Anti-Arab pogroms?

    Most of the time you come across as just-another-deluded-ultra-nationalist. Then, once in a while, you write something which is just plain disturbing.

    • Assuming you’re being serious, I’ll address your “arguments”.

      First, it is undeniable that Sunni Arab leaders fear Iranian hegemony. As WaPo reported recently:

      http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/aug/6/poll-majority-of-arab-world-views-nuke-armed-iran-/?page=all

      “Arab Public Opinion Poll’s findings on Iran stand in marked contrast to the stances of most Sunni Arab leaders, who fear the regional implications of an Iranian bomb.”

      And, further.

      “Last month, The Times reported on unusually blunt remarks from the United Arab Emirates ambassador to the U.S., who said he favored airstrikes on Iran’s nuclear sites by U.S. or Israeli forces despite the consequences for the region.”

      “If you are asking me, ‘Am I willing to live with [the fallout from military action] versus living with a nuclear Iran,’ my answer is still the same: ‘We cannot live with a nuclear Iran,’“ Ambassador Yousef al-Otaiba said during a conference in Aspen, Colo.”

      “the Times of London reported that Saudi Arabia had given Israel tacit approval to use its airspace in the event of an aerial attack on Iranian nuclear facilities”

      That the same Arab masses who hold almost universally antisemitic views (per a Pew poll I’ve cited often), don’t necessarily share this concern wasn’t relevant to my point.

      http://www.pewglobal.org/2011/07/21/muslim-western-tensions-persist/1/

      2. Truly remarkable. You must read the Guardian. So, it’s Iran who’s the victim and Israel who’s the aggressor? Ahmadinejad has threatened or called for Israel’s annihilation dozens of times. The evidence is readily available and not controversial. Even the Guardian reported this.

      http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/oct/27/israel.iran

      He’s also denied the Holocaust (which I assume you’re not bothered by) and, further, called Zionists evil, filthy bacteria, and a manifestation of satan.

      http://www.adl.org/main_International_Affairs/ahmadinejad_words.htm?Multi_page_sections=sHeading_1

      And, of course, the regime also has this decidedly illberal habit of hanging gays and adulterers.

      3. Yes, you’re such a sensitive, progressive soul, aren’t you. You can see Nasrallah’s side. What appears to those of us who are evidently intellectually crippled by ethnic loyalties as explicit antisemitism and a clear desire to kill Jews in Israel and throughout the rest of the world is really all one big cultural misunderstanding.

      4. Do you work for PressTV? Really, just asking. So Hamas, whose founding charter quotes from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion to “prove” that Jews are indeed trying to take over the world, is the victim and Israeli Jews are the racists because we take Islamists’ calls for our annihilation seriously.

      Come on. Tell me who you really are. Lauren Booth? Yvonne Ridley?

      Regardless thanks for contributing to our thread. You certainly clarify the importance of our mission more than anyone.

      • @Adam – “First, it is undeniable that Sunni Arab leaders fear Iranian hegemony. As WaPo reported recently:

        “Arab Public Opinion Poll’s findings on Iran stand in marked contrast to the stances of most Sunni Arab leaders, who fear the regional implications of an Iranian bomb.”

        Yes, you’re making the same boneheaded, anti-democratic mistake that the western governments made. You are looking at the views of the “leaders” – the less-than-1% who control lives of the more-than-99%. Sunni leaders, like leaders anywhere else, are concerned primarily with their own power.

        Admittedly asking you to appreciate basic democratic principles might be asking a bit much, but if you look at what the *people* think, rather than their despotic leaders, you’ll find that Israel and the US are viewed as FAR bigger dangers than Iran, which, after all, hasn’t attacked another country in living memory.

        “Last month, The Times reported on unusually blunt remarks from the United Arab Emirates ambassador to the U.S….”

        Quoting the less-than-1% again, and ignoring the more-than-99%.

        I can see how people end up with your views, you are clearly predisposed to utter subservience towards authority. You hang on the every word of governments, diplomats and generals, but ignore the other 99%.

        “2. Truly remarkable. You must read the Guardian.”

        I don’t read British newspapers, as a rule.

        “Ahmadinejad has threatened or called for Israel’s annihilation dozens of times.”

        Let’s pull at this a little. Can you give me an example of Ahmadinejad threatening military action against Israel, as opposed to wishing the demise of the regime or calling for regime change?

        Want to see how quickly I can get an unequivocal quote of Israeli leaders openly calling for military action against Iran?

        “The evidence is readily available and not controversial. Even the Guardian reported this.”

        You’re citing the Guardian?

        “He’s also denied the Holocaust (which I assume you’re not bothered by) and, further, called Zionists evil, filthy bacteria, and a manifestation of satan.”

        Because he’s a knuckle dragging moron. I hope that’s not a reason to attack him or we’re in real trouble.

        “And, of course, the regime also has this decidedly illberal habit of hanging gays and adulterers.”

        I agree, it’s a brutal regime.

        “4. Do you work for PressTV?”

        No. Although I have been on Al Jazeera if that helps you formulate some ad hominem to avoid bringing substance.

        I’ve condemned the Hamas charter as vile and anti-Semitic. I’ve also pointed out that it has been dropped, doesn’t appear on their website and isn’t referred to by the politburo.

        Just to see if you’re a partisan hack, or someone interested in peace (and bearing in mind that we all know the answer here), answer me this one, very simple question:

        Do you condemn the platform on which Bibi was elected, which calls for Palestine to be wiped off the map?

  2. Adam Levick – am I right that you (and possibly others here) are in agreement with a pre-emptive strike by Israel on Iran?

    I wonder if you’ve considered the consequences of this. There’s nothing new in the fact that if Iran builds a bomb then Israel will be in its sights.

    If Israel decides to attack Iran then every Jew, everywhere in the world will be considered a legitimate target by Jihadis. Nothing enrages and unites Muslims more than Jews killing Muslims. Have you considered how this would sit with those Jews outside of Israel who don’t want to live there but would like to have quiet lives in the countries they are citizens of? Is it surprising that they would not be pleased, to say the least?

    If Obama wants to be re-elected he’d have to go along with it – the Lobby would see to that. As for the UK – well, they’d probably go along with it too. Now… ask yourselves if another war on behalf of a third country (Israel) would go down well with ordinary Americans and Brits, when their economies are dire, and when they are sick and tired of their sons and daughters coming home in body bags from Iraq and Afghanistan after fruitless wars? They don’t care about what happens to Israel, when their jobs, homes and livelihoods are at stake. They care about whether the things their governments do are in their countries’ national interests, and you can’t blame them. Another pointless war is not in anybody’s interests. You should read some of the below the line comments about this in American and British blogs – and try for once to stop yourselves from calling them anti-Semites – just be rational.. Can you blame them when Jewish kids would rather fight in the IDF than enlist in the armies of their own countries?

    All I’m saying is – look carefully what what you, as Jews, support.

    • First, I never said I support a pre-emptive strike, just arguing against the moral folly of not taking the Iranian threat seriously. The Guardian editorial is even against economic sanctions, and cyber-war.

      Ok, to be clear, and cutting to the chase. You make the following points (and please tell me if anything below doesn’t accurately reflect your views):

      1.The Jewish/Israel lobby was responsible for pushing a non-Jewish President to invade Iraq.

      2. If another non-Jewish liberal, Democratic President goes to war against Iran it will similarly be the doing of the Jewish/Israel lobby.

      3. Antisemitism is a rational reaction to Jewish kids making Aliyah. That is, I’m assuming you’re suggesting a classic dual loyalty charge.

      If you want to clear up my interpretation of your comment, please, I’m all ears.

      • Such a knee jerk reply. I’ll willingly clear up your MISinterpretation of my comment.

        Take a step back, stop being emotive and consider the fact that it’s as plain as the nose on your face that the Israel Lobby does have power in the US, and it uses that power to get what it wants for another country, not America – Israel. To pretend otherwise is fooling yourself. It may be fine for you to stick with the official line of the official Jews – but others, many of whom are Jews, are waking up to this fact. If you’d have read my post properly you’d know that more and more ordinary Americans do not want their money and aid etc. to go to Israel, or to any other country. Obama’s in between a rock and a hard place. He needs to get re-elected, after all.

        I only asked the question whether you were in favour of a pre-emptive strike, it was you who jumped to the wrong conclusion about what I meant.

        You’re implying that I’m anti-Semitic – I’m not, I’m a Jew who lived in Israel for many years – hence my name. It means “Think!” As far as the dual loyalty charge is concerned – what answers would you have if asked why Jewish kids don’t join the British or American armies, if they’re citizens of those countries? Do you even have an answer, or does it fit in with your comfort zone to go straight to accusations of anti-Semitism in the same old and overused attempt to shut people like me up who you think dare to step out of line?

        Now perhaps you’ll comment on the part of my post you chose to ignore. Did you read and understand the last paragraph – do you think Britain and the US should wade in on behalf of Israel, if Israel decides to attack Iran?

        One more question for you – do you think those Jews who are happy being citizens of the countries they’re in deserve the unwanted attention (to say the least) they’re bound to get if Israel decides to go ahead? I’d be very interested in your unbiased answer to this post.

  3. Dubitante I don’t know who you are but when you talk of lies I see you’re adding a few of your own.

    How can you possibly expect Jews to disbelieve Hamas when it has always said it will kill every last Jew in Israel? It’s always been consistent in this regard. Have you read its Charter? Judging by the way its behaved so far, for people like you to believe it doesn’t mean Israeli Jews actual harm is more than plain worrying, it’s delusional.

    How do you have the nerve to say that to resist Hamas’s attempts to murder Jews is racist against Arabs?

    It’d be interesting to get your views on the ultra-nationalism of Hamas, who believes Palestine should be from the Jordan to the sea, and Hizbullah. Or is this kind of nationalism OK because they’d be working to destroy Israel?

  4. Excuse me for a second, I need to bang my head on my desk…..

    That’s better, now…

    “Dubitante I don’t know who you are but when you talk of lies I see you’re adding a few of your own.”

    Name one.

    “How can you possibly expect Jews to disbelieve Hamas when it has always said it will kill every last Jew in Israel?”

    What do you mean “it has always said”. When has it “always said?” What do you mean by “always?”

    “Have you read its Charter?”

    Yes I have. Did you know that Hamas’ political leader has dismissed the charter as no longer relevant to the Hamas of today?

    Did you know they were elected on a very moderate platform? Have you read that? Did you know that Bibi was elected on a platform which called for Palestine to be wiped off the map?

    “How do you have the nerve to say that to resist Hamas’s attempts to murder Jews is racist against Arabs?”

    Unless you can quote where I said that, I will assume it’s a straw man argument.

    “It’d be interesting to get your views on the ultra-nationalism of Hamas”

    Hamas isn’t ultra-nationalist. Violent, authoritarian and anti-Semitic, perhaps. But not ultra-nationalist.

    “who believes Palestine should be from the Jordan to the sea, and Hizbullah. Or is this kind of nationalism OK because they’d be working to destroy Israel?”

    I’m an anarchist my friend. I view ALL forms of nationalism with disgust.

    • You are doing all this for a dare, aren’t you dubitante? I mean seriously, no-one could be wilfully ignorant to the extent you demonstrate above in respect of Hamas’ intentions towards Israel and its Jews.

      Listen up:

      If the charter is “no longer relevant” why hasn’t it been publicly rescinded and why hasn’t that been widely reported? (Did you read about it on one of your excursions online and if so do post a link here so we can see for ourselves)

      More importantly, if the charter is no longer relevant, why is Hamas making sure that the hatred in it will be transmitted to the next generation? Why does Hamas continue to abuse its children and its women – the former by inculcating hatred and totally unnatural wish for death into them and teaching them to hate Jews and Israel, the latter by putting them into situations whereby their honour is compromised and forcing them to participate in terrorist activity to “redeem” their families’ honour? Why isn’t Hamas educating those children towards peaceful, or at least non-belligerent coexistence with their Jewish neighbour?

      You know as well as I, but I suspect you’d rather not admit it here because it shows you to be at least misguided or in error, that Hamas has BEHAVED consistently towards Israel what it has said in its charter It bears ultimate responsibility for all the rockets launched at Israeli civilians because it is the democratically elected government in charge, as other witless ones never tire of telling us, always of course neglecting to add that even if the Palestinians in Gaza wanted a democratic election to get rid of it they could not hold one, because Hamas has bumped off all viable opposition. II can’t find that on your blog either. Strange that.

      Hamas are about as moderate as Atilla the Hun and they were elected because Fatah were as corrupt as hell and you know it. Ordinary Palestinians cannot have known what they were letting themselves in for.

      • @Sarah – “If the charter is “no longer relevant” why hasn’t it been publicly rescinded and why hasn’t that been widely reported?”

        Even though their political leader dismissed it as irrelevant to his organisation, it still gets PLENTY of column inches. Its dismissal gets zero column inches. Just as their 2006 moderate election platform gets zero column inches.

        I say zero, I’m aware of a single article in the corporate media about their 2006 platform. But you ask a very important question – WHY isn’t it widely reported.

        It’s for the same reason that even though the Ahmadinejad “wipe Israel off the map” misquote has been thoroughly debunked by academics, it is still widely reported as FACT in the corporate press. Just yesterday I saw it appear in an AP article.

        The simple, incontrovertible truth is that the corporate media follows an anti-Muslim agenda. This isn’t because of any animosity the stenographers in the press have towards Muslims, it’s just that the narrative they relay is chosen for them mostly by governments. Why do you think Jewish terrorism committed against Palestinians gets such little coverage compared with Islamic terror committed against Israelis?

        “Why isn’t Hamas educating those children towards peaceful, or at least non-belligerent coexistence with their Jewish neighbour?”

        The same reason Israeli culture is fiercely racist towards Arabs, the same reason that these values are being passed on to Israeli children.

        “Hamas has BEHAVED consistently towards Israel what it has said in its charter”

        Has it? Hamas has committed countless acts of terrorism while resisting a racist and colonial occupying force. But they have also repeatedly offered to negotiate with Israel based on international law. Again, virtually zero press coverage.

        A while ago, I compared the press coverage of two terror attacks with similar death tolls. One against Israelis, one against Palestinians. The attack against the Israelis was universally reported, condemned by world leaders and even Obama. The attack against the Palestinians was received minor coverage, with no victims names mentioned. No leaders commented on it.

        “[Hamas] bears ultimate responsibility for all the rockets launched at Israeli civilians because it is the democratically elected government in charge”

        From the perspective of international law, that’s not the case. As belligerent occupier of Gaza, the responsibility lies with Israel.

        “Hamas are about as moderate as Atilla the Hun and they were elected because Fatah were as corrupt as hell and you know it.”

        Agree.

        “Ordinary Palestinians cannot have known what they were letting themselves in for.”

        Palestinians had to choose between a collaborator regime and a resistance regime. They chose resistance, and the US-Israel alliance has been punishing them ever since, and even backed a coup to overturn the democratic result.

        • dubitwit, Where on al jazeera for example is the report that hamass has rescinded its fascist and genocidal charter?

          Where on al jazeera is the commentary and analysis by its reporters regarding your claims that hamass rescinded its fascist and genocidal charter?

    • Psst… dubitante….

      First, bang your head on your desk once more….

      That’s better, that should focus your attention. Now listen up:

      This is from the government which rules according to the Hamas charter which you argue it has “dismissed.” You will see that Jew-killing is still uppermost on its agenda. Please get back to me if the meaning of its intentions towards Israel and its Jews is at all unclear to you.

      Peace and lots of paracetamol because something tells me you will need it…

      http://www.memri.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/3190.htm

  5. It’s not relevant to me on what basis Hamas wants to kill me. It’s enough that it wants to kill me.
    If some dilettante apologist tells me that it doesn’t while al Zahar tells me that it does the denial is really not relevant.

  6. Classic:

    “Hamas isn’t ultra-nationalist. Violent, authoritarian and anti-Semitic, perhaps. But not ultra-nationalist.”

    Well..as long as their not ultra-nationalist…Hamas could conceivably support your anarchistic politics. Perhaps you should post on Hamas forums and see what kind of response you get.

    Oh, and “anti-Semitic, perhaps.”

    Again, simply classic.

  7. Did you know that Hamas’ political leader has dismissed the charter as no longer relevant to the Hamas of today?
    There are white lies, evil lies and laughable lies. The above belongs to the last category.
    This Dubi a real gift for Cifwatch demonstrating the real face of a modern Western educated Jew hater.
    Iran doesn’t threaten Israel – only the Zionist regime! Fantastic! That the Israeli state and the Zionist regime are exactly the same – this fact certainly wouldn’t influence the learned opinion of this braindead hate filled “liberal progressive”.

    • He’s also a gift because he gives all of us who want to do so the chance to repeat the facts in answer to him.

      These are excellent opportunities. Just as the sort of Big Lies propagated by the Guardian and the likes of dubitante,grow with the telling in the minds of the ignorant, why should not Big Truths grow likewise? At least we can hope that there will be enough cognitive dissonance to confuse the liars utterly.

      Keep ’em coming dubitante! You are helping us a lot!

  8. Did you know that Bibi was elected on a platform which called for Palestine to be wiped off the map?
    Dubi you forgot your pills today…

  9. Chashvu:

    “If Israel decides to attack Iran then every Jew, everywhere in the world will be considered a legitimate target by Jihadis”

    Maybe it’s about time Jews in the Diaspora realized what’s at stake for Israel daily, and if we are more at risk from ‘jihadis’ – then so be it!
    Maybe it would be safer to make aliya to Israel, eh and actively fight for our existence instead of leaving it to others..

    • Fairplay – “Maybe it would be safer to make aliya to Israel, eh and actively fight for our existence instead of leaving it to others..”

      If you meant what you said, then it would indeed be best for you to put your money where your mouth is. What could be a better indication of support for Israel, than to go and fight for her over there?

      Many Jews over here in the UK support Israel’s right to exist, but regard Israel as just another country. They were born here, this is their home. It would seem the safety of these Jews is not important to you,from your post.

      • They were born here, this is their home. It would seem the safety of these Jews is not important to you,from your post.

        Did I understand you well? Did you say that for UK Jews the security of Israel is less important that their own life in the security of the UK, but Israeli Jews should consider their well-being first and their own existence only second?

  10. And look what appeared in the kitty litter praising the Guardian editorial :

    http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2011/11/05/u-s-worried-israel-will-go-rogue-attack-iran-without-coordination/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+richardsilverstein%2FZOfh+%28+Tikun+Olam-%D7%AA%D7%A7%D7%95%D7%9F+%D7%A2

    “Now, you may say that this is an insane way to conduct policy putting most of your citizens at risk through counter-attacks solely in order to send a message in blood. I agree. But much of Israeli policy isn’t rational. So what can you do? I suppose some might argue that much of Iranian policy isn’t rational either. That’s why Iran and Israel, their leaders at least, seem made for each other. It’s hard to tell which is more “

    • armaros, since when has Dickie Silverstein been an authority on anything? I mean anyone who carries on in the way he does and yet names his blog Tikun Olam has to be seriously near the edge of fantasy and about to fall into the abyss.

  11. “If Israel decides to attack Iran then every Jew, everywhere in the world will be considered a legitimate target by Jihadis. ”

    Because now Jihadis are thinking what about Jews?

    This is so silly. I applaud Israel for kicking up the sand so much. Scaring the West as it seems.

    BUT that is not what is going on kids:

    A hawk can see a mouse from 400m above. But only if the mouse moves.

    This is like the Cuban missile crisis.
    The photos and evidence are being shared with every Western nation as well as Russia and China.

    Israel stoking the Iranians will just make them move stuff around in the attempt to hide evidence. This will create movement on the ground so that the hawks can see the little mice move about expecting a hawk attack.

    Israel rarely attacks with so much warning. Bibi is either being really stupid or actually smart. No Israeli leader would be mouthing off like this if they were really planning an attack. The strength of the IAF is the element of surprise.
    They are playing the west and the Iranians at the same time.

  12. Perhaps we need to get the link up of Hamas burning their prisoners alive in a pit to remind Dubitante of what a pretentious pseudo liberal he really is. A bit like those Bohemian French Socialists who confused the medieval barbarity of Pol Pot with exotic third-world liberationist chic.

  13. Ariadne, from what I am reading, it seems like the Palestinians in Gaza might agree with you (in secret, where there would be no chance of their being identified and bumped off. Some democracy, eh dubitante?

    Groovy Times, would you post it here? Trouble is that the likes of dubitante are so headmessed and locked into their fantasy world that they’d probably say it’s forged,

    You know like the Hamas and Islamist apologists said of the tape of the execution of Nick Berg

    And what we all saw on TV about Gilad Shalit when he was released and the woeful shape he was in.

    It really is a sorry state of affairs when a person doesn’t believe the evidence of his own eyes because he’s ashamed of being found out to have been wrong all along.

  14. Dubitante

    Maybe you should bang your head on the desk a bit harder – you’re obviously out of touch with the reality the rest of us live in.

    What absolute rot you write about Hamas political leader dismissing the part of the Charter. Who exactly was this who said it? You obviously don’t know that as far as Hamas is concerned, no two leaders (or would-be leaders) say the same thing. Back to the drawing board on that one, and do your homework before you argue about it.

    Wouldn’t you be more at home on CiF – you seem to be singing from their hymn sheet. They love anarchists and other misfits there.

    • “What absolute rot you write about Hamas political leader dismissing the part of the Charter. Who exactly was this who said it?”

      It was their political leader, Meshaal. Can you find this charter on their website? Or do they stick to their election manifesto?

      • dubitante, you cling to stupidity like a drowning man to a life belt because you are afraid that if you let go of it (ie admit that you are wrong) you will drown.

        You know precious little about this and the more you post, the less you show yourself to know. Since you didn’t give a link to where Meshaal renounced the charter, in Arabic which matched the English, you are probably lying.

        Now, bang your head one more time on the desk, then focus and concentrate upon the following. Note the date on which it was broadcast:

        http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/3190.htm

        Now, Al Aqsa TV is a Hamas organ.

        As I said, you are lying.

  15. Tym, no let him post here. I agree with SarahLeah, that his massive ignorance, repetition of tropes, etc, give the infinitely more knowledgeable among us the chance to set the record straight in writing for as long as his bletherings persist here. He’s obviously not got much of a life.

    Mind you, so many of his ilk seem to me to get a curious buzz out of it. Perhaps before long they’ll be defined as possessing enough personality characteristics in common to make them into a “type” in a similar fashion to the bizarre mental meanderings of conspiracy theorists, and learned journal articles will be written about them and their attitudes which persist in the face of reason. I confess that I am torn between what I said above, about his use to us here, and not reinforcing that buzz.

  16. dubitwat, Here is the islamofascist president of the Islamic Republic of Iran leading a Nuremberg style rally, leading a murderous chant of “Death to America” and “Death to Israel”.

    Please show us an American president or a Prime Minister of Israel leading a chant of “Death to Iran”.

    Happy Nakba dubitwat!

  17. Silver Trees, only had a quick look. Found this one showing Fatah prisoners being thrown off a roof by Hamas thugs. The more I look at them, the more they remind me of the Khmer Rouge. Dubitante is an apologist for merciless barbarism, devoid of any sympathy or understanding for anyone excpept those who claim to be the ‘victims’ of Jewish / Zionist villainy.

    http://www.viddler.com/explore/adesso_sai/videos/14/

  18. Maybe the Iranian revolution will come before Iran has a chance to do more against Israel:

    http://debka.com/article/21474/

    Two huge explosions at two separate military bases west or Tehran killed dozens of Iranian Revolutionary Guards (IRGC) Saturday, Nov. 12, wounded many more and trapped an unknown number under rubble. Three Iranian Red Crescent rescue teams are on the spot with sniffer dogs. Tehran TV initially reported at least 15 killed.

    In Tehran, 40 kilometers away, windows were shattered and damage caused vehicles and shops. The blasts were heard in Tehran’s center.

    debkafile’s military and Iranian sources report that the explosions may have been part of a series carried out by Iranian dissident groups last month.

    The suspicion of sabotage is strengthened by the occurrence Friday of a big fire at a Tehran warehouse used according to our sources by the IRGC to store crowd dispersal gear.

    The ammo base blown up Saturday in the town of Melard in Shahryar district contained large quantities of rubber bullets, tear gas and other ordnance. A short time later, the second explosion hit a light arms depot at a military camp at Bidganeh several kilometers away. That both were accidents is hardly credible.

    The two blasts were confirmed by the Iranian lawmaker Hossein Garussi without further details.

    One of the armed dissident groups the Iranian authorities recently broke up was Oghab. Three members were executed and the others were allowed to flee the country. An organization of that name operates in the United States, but its leader denies involvement in any sabotage operations inside Iran.