Postscript to David Ward’s comments about ‘Jewish culpability’.

There was an interesting exchange of comments below the line of ‘s Feb. 6 Guardian piece, David Ward: ‘The solid ground I walk on is that I’m not a racist‘.

As a reminder, here are Ward’s comments in the context of Holocaust Memorial Day which began the row:

“Having visited Auschwitz twice – once with my family and once with local schools – I am saddened that the Jews, who suffered unbelievable levels of persecution during the Holocaust, could within a few years of liberation from the death camps be inflicting atrocities on Palestinians in the new State of Israel and continue to do so on a daily basis in the West Bank and Gaza.”

Here, a commenter using the moniker ‘bonbonniera’ responds to ‘chrisgnolan’, picking up on the broad theme advanced by Ward of Jews’ alleged guilt in carrying out atrocities following their liberation after the Holocaust.

1 pic

‘Bonbonnier’ then adds:

2 pic

‘Bonbonniera’ then responds to a question by a commenter using the moniker ‘Rantalot’, about the rights of non-Jews in “Palestine”, writing, thus:

3 pic

Some exchanges below the line at ‘CiF’ are quite instructive.  Here, ‘bonbonniera’ gets to the heart of why Ward’s comments were so offensive:  While the Holocaust, contrary to what some claim, does not represent the justification for a Jewish state (a right derived by Jews’ historical connection to the land, and legally codified by the the Mandate for Palestine), it takes an incredibly hard heart not to sympathize with the political aspirations of Jews following the Holocaust.

Further, Ward’s faux history ignores the fact that it was Arabs who committed extreme acts of violence against Jews in pre-state Israel, and Arabs who sought the annihilation of all Jews from the river to the sea in 1948 (a war which resulted in a large exodus of Palestinian Arabs), Arab leaders who ethnically cleansed Jews from Arab countries in the years following ’48, and Arabs who still refuse to recognize the right of Jews to live in a sovereign state.

The racism which needs to be acknowledged – and which MP Ward truly needs to address – is that of Arabs against a tiny Jewish minority.  Ward, and his defenders at CiF, have learned nothing about the true lessons of the Holocaust, and certainly nothing about the history of the 65 year Arab war against the Jewish state. 

63 replies »

  1. bonbonniera’s comments are measured and sensible. More power to him/her.

    I agree with you that some of the comments below the line are quite instructive

    I particularly agree that Ward needs not to be in denial, but don’t forget he is not appealing to a wide electorate here, rather a predominantly Muslim one which does as it is told. Whatever values he might have possessed, of truth-telling and honesty, have been broken on the wheel of self-service. Of course that merely explains – it certainly does NOT excuse – his half-witted comments (he is a typical politician after all) much less his refusing to act to mitigate the offence he has caused.

    As I said, he is appealing to a particular electorate. Why tell the truth when emotion-laden rubbish (see below about taqiyya) gets you back into the House of Commons? He’s not the first and he certainly won’t be the last spineless useful infidel.

    Who says that there isn’t a Muslim lobby? The MPACUK (it’s instructive to hold one’s nose and visit there, see is often an apologist for Jew-hatred. It says that it stands for “Empowerment through political participation” and an incredible banner at the page says that 99.6% of terrorist attacks are not carried out by Muslims. Of course it doesn’t define what it means by “terrorist attacks”, much less inform us who does carry them out, but a more blatant exmaple of taqiyya I have yet to come across. It also whinges that apologies are never forthcoming from the press where it calls the Muslim prophet a paedophile…. ho hum

  2. As someone wrote about David, if David Ward wants to condemn Israel for defending itself, Ward should be relocated next to Bin Ladin, under Atlantic ocean, together with the Guardian editorial board.

  3. I don’t know David Ward where your silly world municipality is, but if you lived next door to people that slit the throats of babies, kill children on school busses and then pass out candy you might sing a different smarter tune. Or you might just earn a Darwin award for embracing them

    • Ken, the real question here is: why do you live in a settlement built outside Israel, in the territory of the state of Palestine (West Bank, East Jerusalem, Gaza), in contravention of international law?

      Why are you living in an illegal settlement built on land confiscated from the Palestinian people? Why not live in Israel and get a job?

      • “Why not live in Israel and get a job?” nat-shoshana-ariel-hadara

        Why don’t you grow up and get a life, fraudster?

        • Well THAT’S an intelligent response. Only to be expected really. Then you wonder why your case can only be made by use of force, because you have no argument. Keep it up! I’m surprised you can walk with a shoe so full of footbullets.

          • Aww, Alex-the-antiSemite is now a whiner too. Listen, prick, YOU have no arguments whatsoever. You only have Jew-hatred and empty-babble inside your pea-brain. Why don’t you join “nat” and create your own blog of mercenaries?

          • Alex, well it was an intelligent question: why don’t you get a job? Someone with even a modicum of reason would see the irony of being asked by an anti-Isreali obsessive whose main occupation is parading their snazz on this site all day long, and respond with the contempt it deserves.

  4. To David Ward.
    So firing rockets on Israeli cities is what? An act of diplomacy? Blowing up buses and hijacking airliners. A PR statement? You don’t get more criminal than this. But its your beloved pallys doing it so I guess they can literally get away with murder.

    • Ken, how would you qualify Israel’s occupation of the territory of the state of Palestine (West Bank, including East Jerusalem, Gaza), the transfer of 500,000 Israeli settlers into the Palestinian territory, and the high level of impunity enjoyed by Israeli settlers who harass, injure or even kill Palestinian civilians? An act of diplomacy?

      • Why do you care? You, like every modern anti-Semite, don’t give a flying f*** to palestinians. You USE them to vent your hatred, that’s all.

        • SerJew, last time I checked, defending democracy in Israel and supporting the two-state solution, like the majority among the Israeli public who supports a Palestinian state existing side by side with a Jewish one, was not “antisemitic”.

          Why can’t you engage in a respectful debate? Are you unable to articulate your thoughts?

  5. Hamas and the PLO derive their legitimacy by killing Israeli secretaries and high schoolers.

    Virtually all of the Palestinians killed during these past 12 years were suicide bombers, terrorists killed in gun battles, dissidents lynched by fellow Arabs for their beliefs, women and children used as human shields or foils by their “brave fighters” – and yes, dozens of people who were caught in the line of fire. Few recall that when Israel began using aircraft to destroy terrorist facilities (following the massacre of Jewish shoppers at a Netanya mall) the Jews actually publicized the targets in advance, in order to minimize Arab civilian casualties.

    Every morning, at least one Palestinian wakes up with a smile and the thought, “I’m going to murder some Jews today.” They strap on explosive belts and guns, and search out any soft target they can find – a city bus, a baby, a student, a jogger. Israelis do not wake up in the morning and set out to murder Arabs. In rare instances when a Jew actually injures or kills a Palestinian, he is arrested and prosecuted. Contrast this with the Arab hero who shoots a Jewish baby. This “martyr of the Terrorstinians” will be eulogized by Hamas and Fatah, his family made rich and his picture proudly displayed throughout the Arab world.

    The Palestinians have raised an entire generation to believe that the highest aspiration in life is to kill Jews. The Palestinians are engaged in an unremitting campaign of targeted murder of women and children. When the Palestinians massacre Israeli school children on buses, and babies in baby carriages, they celebrate. They have raised an entire generation to believe that the the highest cultural and religious value is the massacre of Jews. Through the Arabs hate, an entire generation has lost the capacity

    • What about Palestinian civilians killed in Israel’s airstrikes on Gaza, or during Israel’s military operations in the West Bank, or as a result of Israeli settler violence in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, Ken?

      • What about them?
        Does any of our minister claim they are shoot with intent to kill civilians?

        What about this one:

        “Mjali, while showing solidarity with the demonstration, called Daqamesh a “hero” and said his imprisonment is unjustified. ”

        Could you clarify this Nat?
        I disagree with much of what Ken wrote but I believe a large portion of the Palestinian next generation is raised on the belief that duying while attempting to attack Jews will get you to heaven and it is an ultimate goal to many youngsters according to well document news reports which have been shown in many TV stations throughout the western world, including Channel 4, Channel 5 and the BBC.
        Are you denying this?
        Do you not think they need Psycological help as well?

    • “Every morning, at least one Palestinian wakes up with a smile and the thought, “I’m going to murder some Jews today.”

      Ken, you comments reek of racism. They’re disgusting.

    • “Contrast this with the Arab hero who shoots a Jewish baby.”

      Ken Kelso, you need to seek urgent psychiatric support.

      • Are you a doctor, “nat”? i thought you were just a mercenary Jew-hater, fraudster and sock-puppeteer. Piss off.

        • SerJew, why are you unable to engage in a respectful debate?

          Why do you hate so much the clear majority among the Israeli public that supports a Palestinian state existing side by side with a Jewish one, and wants peace?

          Why do you promote war and intolerance?

    • Dear Ken, what about the eleven-month old baby boy who was killed in an Israeli airstrike in Gaza last November? Why do you forget to mention him? Why this bias?

    • “The Palestinians have raised an entire generation to believe that the highest aspiration in life is to kill Jews.”

      -This is hate speech. Imagine if someone said some similarly nutty generalisation about Jews or Israelis?

      “Through the Arabs hate, an entire generation has lost the capacity”
      Capacity to do what?
      You’ve copied and pasted that entire comment from somewhere else, haven’t you?

      • “-This is hate speech. Imagine if someone said some similarly nutty generalisation about Jews or Israelis?”
        Imagine if saying it about Israelis bore any similarity to reality.

        • Why? It’s bullshit to claim that Palestinians are raised to believe that the highest aspiration in life is to kill Jews.

          If something similar were said about Jews, some people would call “libel!”.

  6. Nat, you need to learn history.
    Jews have been living in Israeli East Jerusalem and the West Bank 1500 years before Mohammad was born.
    The only settlers are the Arabs.
    Jerusalem has had a Jewish population majority since the late 1850s – that’s 130 years already, before ‘Palestinianism’ was invented:
    Jews were expelled from East-Jerusalem by the Jordanian occupation at 1948. They lived in East-Jerusalem for thousands of years. They returned to their homes after Israel liberated the city in 67.

    • Ken, you need to learn history and international law.

      Palestinians have been living in Palestine for centuries. To steal their land and expel them in the name of what happened thousands of years ago doe snot make any sense.

      Israel’s settlements in the state of Palestine (West Bank, including East Jerusalem, Gaza) are in contravention of international law and are considered illegal by the entire international community.

      Gush Katif Settlers had to leave their illegal settlements and go back home to Israel. The same will happen for West Bank, including East Jerusalem, settlers – they will have to go back home to Israel, because occupying another state and another people is unsustainable,

      Palestinians were expelled from West-Jerusalem by Israel in 1948. Jews were expelled from East Jerusalem by Jordan in 1948. If you want Israeli settlers to live in East Jerusalem, you need to allow all Palestinians expelled from West-Jerusalem to go back to their homes in Bakaa, Musrara, the German Colony…

        • Alex the article you link to is about the ‘labels of origin’ not about boycotts.

          Sorry to spoil your wet dream about the EU boycotting, what you term as ‘settlement products’. If you had bothered to read the article you would have noticed that even if products were labelled, what you term ‘settlement products’, there are a number of countries who will ignore it and others who will interpret it in such a way as to make it meaningless.

          Sometimes it is sad to see a drowning man clutching at straws, but not in your case.

          • The EU is soon going to impose specific labeling of all Israeli settler produce – those products coming from Israel’s illegal settlements in the territory of the state of Palestine. I doubt that stores will want to sell these produce once they’re labelled.

            • Dear ‘Nat’ are you really that naive to believe that the vast majority of consumers inside the E.U. will pick up goods to look at the label to see where it is from?

              Price and quality are the priorities for the vast majority of consumers, the ‘origin’ of goods is only likely to be influenced by whether goods are produced locally or not.

              • Certainly. That’s what happened with South Africa. It seemed to have little effect at first, but it was the beginning of the end.

      • “Nat,”
        You shouldn’t be talking about history or international law, because you know nothing about either. Serjew has it right when he calls you a fraudster and sock puppeteer.
        “To steal their land and expel them in the name of what happened thousands of years ago doe snot make any sense.” To make such a statement as this is proof of your blatant disregard for both, “nat.”

  7. Nat, there is a primary historical fact, that must be established now. There has never been, I repeat NEVER been, a civilization, Entity, or a nation referred to as “Palestine” There was never a Palestinian tribe, and there was never a Palestinian country in the Land of Israel to begin with! Israel is not for sale. It is not a pie to be sliced up and served to a clan of killers and their supporters. 1: When did Jerusalem serve as a capital to any Arab Country? Never.
    2: When did Jerusalem serve as a Palestinian capital? Never.
    3: Only Israel have had Jerusalem as there capital in Ancient and modern times. Jerusalem was never in history an Arab capital and never will be one.
    4: How many times is Jerusalem mentioned in the Koran? Zero.
    Was Mohammed to so badly educated, he could not utter the word

    • Ken, how can we hope to have peace as long as far right wing extremists like you deny the existence of the Palestinian people? How can we hope to have security as long as extremists like you erase the existence of millions of men, women and children?

      • “Nat,”
        How can we hope to have peace as long as frauds such as yourself label Israelis and Jews who have yearned for peace for the past 65 years as “right-wing extremists” while simultaneously giving succor and support for those Arabs/Muslims who to this day dream of annihilating Israel and driving the Jews into the sea?
        Let me tell you, “nat,” that this will never happen no matter how hard your insane friends hope for it. The only outcome that you and your left-wing fraudsters can possibly bring about is to consign these communities to endless bloodshed for your own sick sado-masochistic amusement. It’s not funny, and it’s not cute.

    • Ken, the State of Palestine is not for sale. It is not a pie to be sliced up and served to a clan of violent settlers and their hard right wing supporters.

  8. Nine times more Jewish civilians have been murdered by Palestinians in the West Bank than Palestinians murdered by Jews in the West Bank.

    During the past 11 years, out of 50 Arabs killed by Jewish civilians, 27 were self-evident cases of self-defense against armed Palestinian assailants
    By contrast, the 215 Jews murdered in the West Bank (254 if Gaza is included) involved almost without exception clear-cut circumstances in which Palestinian assailants targeted their victims, often in home invasions involving the slaughter of entire families like the Fogel Massacre, Shefi family massacre, gang assaults on hikers or attacks on civilian vehicles. Other sources, like the Israeli Ministry for Foreign Affairs and the United Nations (OCHA) confirm the relatively few murders committed by Jews and the much higher number of lethal assaults by Palestinian murderers.

  9. Why does Hamas send rockets from a school praying that Israel returns fire and kill some of it’s children. Thats Gaza today. The Arabs are the only people in the world that go out day by day figuring ways to get their children to die in front of the world press.
    Look at this video of Hamas using civilians as human shields in Gaza. Then again, Hamas knows Nat wont say a word about this.

    PA TV glorifies terror attack that killed 22 children
    Itamar Marcus and Nan Jacques Zilberdik
    Feb. 29, 2012
    PA TV glorifies terror attack that killed 22 children and 4 adults in Ma’alot, in 1974
    Other terror attacks by DFLP also glorified
    Hamas celebrates 10th anniversary of Netanya Passover massacre
    March 27, 2012
    Maybe I missed it, but I don’t recall seeing any Arabs protesting against this attack, or writing anguished op-eds about how a fellow Muslim could have done such a thing. No Arab groups popped up on college campuses calling for solidarity with Jews against terror. There were no UN resolutions condemning the massacre.
    But there was a PA-sponsored soccer tournament in Tulkarem named after the suicide bomber.

  11. Nat, here are some facts for you.

    You say,
    Palestinians have been living in Palestine for centuries. To steal their land and expel them in the name of what happened thousands of years ago doe snot make any sense.

    That is a total lie what you said.
    This article goes into detail which shows the lies you spout.
    The Myth Of The “Palestinian” People
    Yehezkel Bin-Nun

    2nd, The Palestinians have nothing to do with the name Palestine.
    The name Palestine is named after the Philistines, not the Palestinians or any Arab group.
    The name Palestine was applied by the Romans against the Jews to destroy the name Israel.
    It was certainly not directed or bestowed to the Arabs in this area.
    The Philistines were from Crete and came to Israel 3000 years ago and were not Arabs or Muslims.
    Delilah and Goliath were Philistines. (Philistines died out.)
    Philistine is the name the Romans renamed Israel as a chagrin against the Jews.
    Yassir Arafat was not a Philistine, but an ARAB born in Egypt. Philistine originates from the Hebrew verb Palash, which means to invade. So the Arabs who started to call themselves Palestinians in the late 60’s are invaders and they want to create an Invadia state.

  12. Nat, Jews come from Israel with Jerusalem as their capitol.
    All Arabs come from Saudi Arabia.
    The Arabs are invaders from Saudi Arabia.
    Tell me Mr Genius Nat, how do the Arabs have 22 countries when all the Arabs come from 1 country Saudi Arabia?
    How did the Arabs get all of North Africa from the Berbers?
    I’m talking about what is today, Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia and Libya.
    Its called Mohammad and his Jihad armies in the 7th century invaded and took the entire Mideast and North Africa and forced everyone they defeated to be Islamic and Arab.
    So i agree with you on one thing, peace will happen when all the Arabs go back to Saudi Arabia.

    • Nat, Jews come from Israel with Jerusalem as their capitol. All Arabs come from Saudi Arabia. The Arabs are invaders from Saudi Arabia.

      Good God. Which Simpleton Israeli Nationalist History of the MIddle East did you get that nonsense from?

    • peace will happen when all the Arabs go back to Saudi Arabia

      You – not me – might as well say: Jews back to Ur!

      • Hear hear (Pretz). Insane nonsense from Ken.

        The problem is, nothing he says is demonstrably untrue. It’s just incredibly selective. History is like statistics. You can use it to prove almost anything if you are selective enough.