Miscellaneous

Why the Left’s Failure to Confront Palestine’s Extreme-Right Values Prevents Peace


Those passionately supporting the creation of a Palestinian state should at least acknowledge one undeniable reality: the state they wish to see come into existence will not likely be progressive in even the broadest sense of the term.

Though Leftists in the West who champion the Palestinian cause can reasonably argue that their opposition to the occupation, and related support for Palestinian self-determination, is guided by liberal principles, they are rarely asked why they’re not burdened by the question of what kind of state – politically and ideologically – Palestine will become.

Indeed, there is a vast amount of evidence – including polling data – suggesting that on issues that matter most to the Left (anti-racism, gay rights, women’s rights, religious freedom, freedom of speech, a free press, democracy, etc.), Palestine – even if it’s ruled by the “moderate” Fatah – will be on the extreme right on most or all of these issues.

  • On gay rights: Polling data by Pew Global indicates that a staggering 93% of Palestinians reject the idea that society should accept homosexuality.
  • On racism: Palestinians have the highest rate of antisemitic attitudes in the world per an ADL poll in 2014 and Pew Global studies from previous years. Further, officially sanctioned antisemitic incitement continues unabated.
  • On women’s rights: Pew Global revealed that 84% of Palestinians believe that adulterers should be stoned.
  • On democracy: 89% of Palestinians expressed their belief, in a Pew Global poll, that Islamic law (Sharia) should be the official law of the land.
  • On support for violence: In addition to the glorification of terrorism by PA leaders, Palestinians, again per Pew Global, have the highest level of support for suicide bombings in the world.

Of course, it is at least possible, some would argue, that Palestine – once granted political independence – would evolve into a progressive, pluralistic democracy. But, is such a scenario really likely?

Moreover, the question of Palestinian values is directly related to hopes for a two-state agreement.  

Most Israelis support two states for two peoples, but are extremely skeptical that, under current conditions, any such deal will actually result in peace. Israel’s pessimism over the prospects that such a deal (if both parties can agree on a whole host of outstanding issues relating to security, borders, recognition, etc.) will bring real peace is rooted in a sober assessment of the likely political nature of the new state on their eastern border.  

The Israeli nightmare scenario in which the new state would (in a matter of weeks, months or at most a few years) devolve into a terror state – repeating the failure of Gaza – seems quite likely in the absence of evidence that Palestinian society is moving towards a more progressive direction. Indeed, the lesson of Gaza – and, to some extent, the US invasion of Iraq – is that democracy doesn’t automatically create liberal values.  The inverse is more accurate. Liberal values create the political dynamics necessary for a real and lasting democracy.

Whilst such values can’t be imposed from the outside, Westerners who are passionate about peace in the region can certainly play a part in the process by holding Palestinians to the same moral standards as they do Israel. Palestinians must be told that their future independence depends on their commitment to embarking on true political reforms, and fostering a culture which embraces peace, anti-racism and pluralism.

Israelis can accept a less than perfect Palestine, but will not serve as a midwife to another Islamist extremist state whose only exports are war and terror.

Unless those on the Left who putatively support a progressive solution to the conflict also demand progressive values from actual Palestinians, the State of Palestine will not soon be born.

87 replies »

  1. The reason many on the Left fail to confront the reality of what kind of state Palestine would become, is because they have very little interest in that outcome. Most of these so-called ‘progressives’ are only championing the Palestinian cause because Palestine’s perceived opponent, Israel, is allied with the US, and, as any good Lefty knows, the US are the devil incarnate.

    And, I say this as a progressive Lefty who used to be in that camp, until I actually educated myself on the reality faced by Israel. And, that’s another reason why so many in the West champion the Palestinian cause – because, like my younger self, they have no idea what’s actually happening in the Middle East, and are just in it for the cause of the ‘underdog’. The Western media has played no small part in fostering this situation.

    Of course, another reason for the Left’s behaviour is that a fair number of them are plain old antisemites, who can’t stand the idea of a Jewish state, just like their far-Right counterparts…

  2. For the most part I agree with Neil. I do want to emphasize that the ignorance about Israel and what is happening in the Middle East is rampant. I blame the press for this. On their best days, the press frames the conflict in terms of tit for tat or cycle of violence (rather than Israel responding to attacks). On their worst days they simply blame Israel for the whole mess.

  3. Neil, thank you for your comment. It is so tremendously important, especially because you come from that camp. It is so terribly frustrating that, for example, in the 2014 Gaza war, all the left-wing, progressive, even liberal demonstrations were anti-Israel. Seeing “Gays and Lesbians for Palestine” flags waved at Hamas rallies was unworldly. Do they have any idea what Palestinians, moreover Hamas, thinks of gays and lesbians? Oh, it goes on and on. But the worst, for those of us who are generally liberal, that the only media outlet that was at all fair to Israel or interested in the Israeli perspective, or the truth, was Fox News. We used to laugh at them, now they are the only fair reporters? And politically, who stood up for Israel – Rubio making impassioned speeches based on the truth in the Senate. Republicans, conservatives. Who among the liberals and Democrats did anything like that? We have been abandoned, and for what?

    • “And politically, who stood up for Israel – Rubio making impassioned speeches based on the truth in the Senate. Republicans, conservatives. Who among the liberals and Democrats did anything like that? We have been abandoned, and for what?”

      Hey Doc. This is what makes me think you’re full of it. Plenty of Progressives stood up for Israel during the Gaza War. And you’re going to call Mark Rubio — who along with this GOP brethren got the majority of Americans to consider Israel as a meddling state with that stupid letter written to Iran during negotiations — an impassioned friend? Hell no.

      With friends like that…. oh yeah, about half the country hates Israel.

  4. On the racism point, there is also the caste-system against the small afro-Palestinian community. It is unclear to me whether these people are actually of African descent or just appear to have a black phenotype, but they are discriminated against by mainstream Palestinian society. Also Palestinian culturally generally, like Arab culture generally, is obsessed with lighter skin as a marker of status and beauty.

    On the gay rights front, the AP (of all places) had a story yesterday of a rainbow flag on the separation barrier getting painted over, along with a surprisingly frank discussion of the anti-gay attitudes.

    On the violence front, you should mention honor killings.

    In any case, anti-Israel people do not care. The one time I was able to get a response out of one of those people about these issues, he said something along the lines of ‘Native Americans were not progressive, and had racism and violence against women, but it was still wrong for Europeans to colonize them. Therefore it is still wrong for Jews to colonize Palestine, even if they are more progressive than the Palestinians.’

    • You might want to comment of the Christian Arabs as well. Their hatred of all non-Muslims is some of the most extreme in the entire Middle East and that is saying a lot.

    • They should never be allowed to get away with that bastardization of history. The Jews didn’t colonize their own homeland, that the Arabs, among others, stole, to be taken over by Ottoman Turks. Whites are not indigenous to North America, for that matter Arabs ARE NOT INDIGENOUS TO JUDEA! That IS where the Jews come from and we have a history going back millenia, in spite of Arab/Moslem attempts to destroy historical artifacts wherever they can, and to make up history to fit their “narrative” – their lies. And whenever some progressive American, for example, brings up Native Americans, it is fair to demand of them, what exactly have THEY done to right the wrongs that THEIR people did to the Native Americans? Start with the Black Hills, and if they don’t know the incredible injustices committed in/on the Black Hills, they really ought to learn before trying to lecture us on Middle East history.

      As far as the racism against blacks amongst the Palestinians, I am grateful that you brought that up. It is almost never mentioned, and for that matter, even the most Arabophillic (I know its not a word) progressives have no idea they even exist. Which is part of the problem. In the Palestinian mock-legislature – Hey! Whatever happened to that bunch of good old boys?! – there wasn’t a single black Palestinian. And you are certainly correct about the Arab/Palestinian obsession with light vs. dark skin. REgarding the origins of the black community, many who live in and around Jericho and the surrounding refugee camps, they were most likely brought in by Arabs as slaves, not unlike the millions of black African slaves in the Arab world today. What? Our progressive friends didn’t know about that? Or just didn’t care? THOSE black lives DON’T matter?! S–t!

      At any rate, like the Egyptians, other North African, Syrians, Arabian (Saudi peninsula), and all the others who came to the Jewish homeland to COLONIZE it and now call themselves Palestinians – its still going on by the way. A black Palestinian friend of mine brought his wife in from Syria. As much as I love my friend, you can bet she and their children will be considered Palestinian refugees – and by the way, I lost that friend because I was told that if I kept in contact with him after the start of the intifada he would be killed as a collaborator. Murdered for associating with a Jew. Oh, but Zionists are racists, right?

      So thank you for your comment. You raised many excellent points. If only these comments were more widely spread. Best of luck friend.

  5. As an Israeli Zionist who believes that we should be negotiating a two-state solution based on 67 borders and land swaps, I would respectfully suggest that it is none of our bloody business what the values of the Palestinian state would be.

    I completely reject your idea that “the question of Palestinian values is directly related to hopes for a two-state agreement”. I don’t think you’ve presented a single piece of evidence to support this statement. For me, the argument for a two-state solution is simply that we have a moral imperative to cease the military occupation of 2.5 million people. The occupation corrupts us all exactly as Yeshayahu Leibowitz predicted it would. We are in absolutely no position to be judging the values of any other state while we have people running around setting fire to churches, writing slogans of race hate on the walls of primary schools, and pouring gasoline into the mounts of teenagers before setting them on fire.

    • We absolutely have the right to criticize another state. Were the French wrong to criticize slavery? Was the world wrong to criticize the real Apartheid in South Africa? The occupation has nothing to do with arresting and torturing gay people; allowing women to be murdered for honor, and jailing people who criticize the government.

    • The single piece of evidence I presented is Gaza. Also, interesting that you’d bring up Leibowitz, who leveled the infamous “judeo nazi’ smear. No doubt you agree with him

    • Daniel,
      I too would love to see a 2 state solution as long as the borders and land swaps leave Israel with defensible, logical borders.
      The values of a Palestinian state are very important to the security of Israel. I am curious. Most people on the left wanted a negotiated peace agreement with Assad in exchange for the return of the Golan. Were you one of those people? For a short period of time I was. Just think of the mess there would be now if Israel had given back the Golan. In the same way, Israel cannot allow a Syrian type regime to be sitting on the ridge line overlooking Tel Aviv and Ben Gurion Airport. Jordan, which would sit to the East of a West Bank “Palestine” is an economically failed state, and very vulnerable to radical Islam. We could easily have ISIS in Ramallah. Only a Palestinian State with strong democratic values would resist the wave of radical Islam. Withdrawal from Gaza, gave us Hamas. Withdrawal from Southern Lebanon greatly strengthened Hezbula. Do you really see a different future for a non democratic Palestinian state other than radical Islam and an ongoing war for Israel? By the way, I too consider myself to be left wing.

      Stan

    • Oh sure, if another were to state that all Palestinians should be judged on the terrorism that some of them cause, you would then howl in objection to over-generalizations. If the state of Palestine attacks Israel, which it almost assuredly will, then yes, it is Israel’s business.

      “Occupation” is a myth created by Arabists and perpetuated by their leftist dhimmis. The land is not occupied. It is disputed. That dispute is to be resolved through negotiations between the sides which the Palestinians refuse to do.

    • Strange enough that you as self appointed Israeli Zionist don`t know that there are no 67 borders, but to reject the question of Palestinian values and to state a moral imperative for the other side without recognising political and military needs is simply weird or the result of deep ideological treatment of reality. No wonder, and a proof of the sanity of the Israeli people that such figures like you don`t have anything political influence in Israel.

      • Um Fritz, you are not making any sense. I doubt it would make any more sense in German. But just a pointer here – if you are going to try and convince others of a particular, if wrong, viewpoint, it helps to be able to express yourself in a cogent manner. I understand you were trying to be mean and insightful, if not inciteful, but you were none of the above. Just confusing, and appearing very, very confused. Now I just have to wonder if your bringing up “a proof of sanity” doesn’t have to do with your own… issues. Just wondering.

        • If you are in search for the sense of your life, ask somebody who is interested in.

        • Um Thomas before you criticise Fritz it would be a good idea if you corrected your own punctuation, grammatical errors and poor style of writing.
          If you have a PhD one can only assume it is definitely not for the English language.

          • Um, Getald, they have medication for OCD. See your friendly neighborhood psychiatrist.

            • So Thomas when your own shortcomings are highlighted your reply is a pathetic attempt at humour.

              Is everything you attempt in life pathetic?
              Or, are you just pathetic when your own ignorance and shortcomings are exposed for all to see?

              • So, Gerald. Is “pathetic” your new word for the week? Very good Gerald. Unfortunately, your use of the word was sadly mediocre, but then again, so is your intellect.

                You, Gerald, are becoming tedious. Why don’t you go troll somewhere else where there may be someone interested in what you have to say. Find new friends with like-minded interests and you may lose your poorly veiled hostility toward those you envy so terribly much.

                Really, now, go away.

                • “So, Gerald. Is “pathetic” your new word for the week?”
                  No Thomas but the word is apposite to describe your attempts at humour.

                  “You, Gerald, are becoming tedious”
                  Unlike you Thomas who started off being tedious and then, suprisingly became even more pathetic.

                  Your hostility is no doubt generated by your sensitivity about having your own failings highlighted.
                  If I though you had any friends Thomas I’d suggest you have a quiet word with them about how you can remedy your personality disorder/s. But on evidence presented by your ‘posts’ I doubt if you have any friends.

                  Get well soon Thomas, or failing that try a clinic in Switzerland they may be able to help one of life’s losers like yourself.

        • You shouldn’t be criticizing Fritz Wunderlich’s English skills. It’s not his primary language. But criticizing his German really takes some balls. Who the hell are you? Fritz has been commenting here for a long, long time, and anyone else who has been here knows him to be extremely intelligent, knowledgeable and worldly. Who the hell are you again?

    • I suggest a reading of the novel “Frankenstein” as a reminder that one has a responsibility not to create a monster.

      Your argument that only a “perfect” society should be allowed to criticize another is both hypocritical flawed on several levels. Firstly, Israel’s critics have no such compunction. Neither do you. Now you might claim that your criticism of “price tag” attacks gives you the moral high ground and thereby exempts you, but then so I and mainstream Israeli society as well.

      • Well done macusersince1984!… Smart, eloquent, sharp, witty, correct, and to the point.

        Consequently, you have no chance of representing Israel in any counter-propaganda campaign. Mitzta’er.

        Well, I guess that’s all I have to say about that.

    • “We are in absolutely no position to be judging the values of any other state while we have people running around”…..

      Sure we are. We are in a position to judge all of it despicable. But your point about the “occupation” and granting self determination to people who’s GOAL of “self determination” is our destruction is at best cognitive dissonance.

      That IS “the question of Palestinian values is directly related to hopes for a two-state agreement”.

      How they treat each-other… In some respects I agree; it’s none of our business. BUT, we WILL share a degree of 2nd degree culpability for every sick thing they’re able to do to each-other under the guise of “self determination” and “independence”.

      So when they toss Gays from rooftops, or Stone women to death for adultery… we WILL will have made that possible. KNOWINGLY.

    • Profoundly ignorant post, as the phrase “1967 borders” reveals. They are Armistice lines representing the 4 Armistice agreements, which stressed that these lines were not borders, just ceasefire lines.
      You simply have no idea that the history of the Jewish state does not start in 1967. It is the 2.5 million “Palestinians” as recent immigrants from surrounding countries who are occupying the rump Jewish state left to us after the 77% was illegally lopped off by the British in 1921, after which cast iron guarantees were given that the 23% remaining would be for the up building of the Jewish National home. Do you really imagine that borders to a country for most of its length would be agreed at 9 miles wide?
      The values of the state proposed are of absolute concern to Israel when the PA leaders emphasise that the object of the creation of such a state is to facilitate the destruction of the Jewish state.
      I suggest you also check out the propaganda you cite above, such as “setting fire to mounts (don’t you mean mounds?) of teenagers, before presenting it as the truth.
      It’s also absurd to call yourself a Zionist when you wish to give up Zion, the biblical name for Jerusalem.

  6. Some of us started our political journey doing apologetics for the Soviet Union or China so it is not surprising when newer generations of activists put aside the type of world those we claim to be in solidarity are seeking. Solidarity should be two ways—people working together to achieve common goals. This is especially problematic when nationalistic struggles are seen as the focus of global solidarity and not the environment, labour rights, women’s rights, LGBT rights, etc.

    • Those doing apologetics for the Soviet Union or China were proud “Antizionists”, too. And the newer generations of “activists” (who the hell called himself activist before the eighties? – revolutionaries, fellow traveler, gueriilam maoist, communist, party member) with less political knowledge, but an equally inflated moral ego as the older ones are equally proud “antizionists”. Well, at least the antisemitic tradition is sound.
      This “(moral) activism” has many parents, f.e. the demise of the Sovietunion, the peace movement, the anarchistic turn in the eighties and the uprising hegemony of neoliberalism in the eighties and so on. It used to be temporarily, a phase of life, but nowadays NGOs get institutionlsed, are a part of the donation industry and offer jobs, how underpaid and insecure those jobs are, in the lower ranks, evidently.

  7. At least part of the issues you have mentioned is very closely related to Israeli occupation of Palestinian land. You cannot seriously expect majority of Palestinians to not be antisemitic when they are victims of Israeli oppression. It is like expecting Warsaw Ghetto residents to be friendly to Germans.

    • Ok, let’s accept that.

      There is still the other racism, the misogyny, the homophobia (to say the least), the honor killings, and so on.

        • No, that’s not what I said. I said you cannot expect the victim to like perpetrators. Palestinian antisemitism is the most likely not to be related to racist mindful, but to the fact that they are occupied, oppressed, murdered on regular basis by Jewish state. In these circumstances I wouldn’t expect anything else.

          Unless you would expect Ghetto fighters to be friends to SS-men in their private life – because they were just doing their jobs?

      • Folks speak of occupied territories. but don’t acknowledge the lands in ten Muslim countries of 870,000 Jews stolen from them.Folks have been victimized by a stunning Arab League hoax. Why blame Israel for your being an ill-informed sucker?

    • If the ‘Germans’ as you so tactfully call the Nazis had offered autonomy and been refused time and again, had brought their victims first world health care, brought them to literacy you wouldn’t be using them as a horrible example, now would you?

      Palestinians are victims of the Arab States’ insistence that Jews should never be allowed to be an accepted part of the ME. They are nothing less than an instrument of political leverage with their right to humanity recognised only by Israel.

      The rest of the ‘pro-Palestinian’ world makes up attitudes and positions for them that they have never dreamed of asking for. Abbas for instance has denied the claims of BDS more than once and yet the movement keeps saying that their desire for the demise of Israel is ‘what the Palestinians want’.

      • @fergusquadro –

        “If the ‘Germans’ as you so tactfully call the Nazis had offered autonomy…”

        Do you mean the sort of “autonomy” embodied in Likud’s 1999 Platform as: “The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state”?

        And which it then fleshed-out more fully in 2015 as: “The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state. Thus, for example, in matters of foreign affairs, security, immigration and ecology, their activity shall be limited in accordance with imperatives of Israel’s existence, security and national needs”?

        If so, your understanding of the word “autonomy” is mangled even by UK Media Watch’s abysmal standards.

        • The election platform of a solitary political party in a Parliamentary government is meaningless.

          And considering Netanyahu’s Bar-Ilan speech and stated support for a 2 State solution it is doubly meaningless to the point of propaganda.

          The continual terror on the part of your hero’s isn’t helping win hearts and minds.

          • @Alexi –

            You say: “The election platform of a solitary political party in a Parliamentary government is meaningless.”

            Unless, of course, that party happens to have been the RULING one for most of the past 40 years – and, even when it wasn’t, managed to harvest enough votes on this platform to ensure significant parliamentary influence…

            And you then assert: “…considering Netanyahu’s Bar-Ilan speech and stated support for a 2 State solution it is doubly meaningless…”

            Unless, of course, one considers that this speech – at best – only marginally diverged from the party’s (retained) Platform position.

            By containing the passage, “to ensure peace we don’t want them to … have an army, or control of airspace, or make treaties with countries like Iran or Hezbollah”, Netanyahu was again making it clear that any “sovereignty” granted to a Palestinian state should be limited to an extent no sovereign country would sanely accept – total emasculation of its security capabilities, the proscribing of its remit in conducting foreign affairs, and even (ultimately) the continuation of Israeli control over its citizens’ freedom of travel.

            As I see it, the Likud Platform is certainly no more “meaningless” than the Hamas Charter (also the long-stated position of a solitary political party), and in at least one respect almost identical as a “right-to-exist” denial:

            “The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.”

        • Palestinians have refused every offer, no matter how it was phrased or what it included.

      • They did. At the beginning, when Germans created ghettos for Jewish people, they gave them some degree of autonomy. They created “councils” and the Jewish police. They were imposing financial fines on Jewish councils, when they though it was appropriate.
        They build high wall around place where Jewish people lived and subject them to strict controls if they were to leave Ghetto area.

        Does it remind you anything?

        • The mellahs of the magreb, which were designed to keep people in, as opposed to the Great Wall of China, which was designed to keep people out and defend the homeland.

        • “Does it remind you of anything”?

          Your post reminds me… I think I forgot to put the seat down after I flushed.

        • “Does it remind you anything?”
          Yes. It reminds me of Schindler’s List. It also reminds me of the Grand Mufti Husseini and his proteges who are still at it today. It also reminds me of the fucking of the western mind. There, I included your own claims to victimhood.

    • Warsaw ghetto residents were held captive in the ghetto because the Nazis wanted to KILL THEM.

      Hamas, the PLO, Fatah, Islamic Jihad, the PFLP.. and all of those other “Democratic Palestinian” representatives and their “electorate” are under “occupation” because they continually try to KILL US.

      Lose the Hate = Get the Land
      Maintain the Hate = Get Stomped.

      I don’t care if they LIKE me. I care that they spent the past 100 years trying to KILL ME.

      • Perhaps if you wouldn’t occupy their land, they wouldn’t? Resistance against occupying power is quite normal – I don’ quite understand why would you expect anything else?

        • “Their Land”

          Well, let’s look at the PLO Charter of 1964… where is states in no uncertain terms that:

          “Article 24. This Organization does not exercise any regional sovereignty over the West Bank in the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, on the Gaza Strip or the Himmah Area.”..

          You do not get to move the goalposts to wherever Jews are found.

          Because that… would be ANTISEMITIC.

        • See the Hebron massacre of 1929. Prior to ANY Israeli or Jewish sovereignty.

          After that, you can show me how “peaceful” everything was prior to the “occupation” of so called “Palestinian Land”.

          But I won’t be holding my breath.

            • “Occupation of “Palestine”.???

              Where EXACTLY is “Palestine”? As far as the Pals go, it seems to be wherever Jews are found.

              Which is the entire point of their moving the goalposts.

            • Palestine? You mean the first western imperialist euphemism for the land of Israel, named by the Romans for a bunch of renegade Greeks who had died out about 8 centuries before the big name change. What does that have to do with the conversion of a bunch of late 20th century Arabs?

        • Your analogy to the Warsaw ghetto is monstrous. Nearly every man woman and child there was put to death. Three hundred and fifty thousand people put to death. 50,000 school children were put to death.

          Under what legal theory is the land Palestinian? Was there every a country called Palestine? Was there ever a Palestinian government before the Palestinian Authority? The only well known leader of the Arabs of the British Palestinian Mandate was Arafat’s uncle, Amin Al Husseini, who spend the war in Germany with his good friend Adolf Hitler murdering Jews with his SS troop and planning the final solution for the Jews of the middle east.

          https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#safe=off&q=mufti+and+hitler

          • The analogy is actually working very well. What you need to remember is that the times have changed in a meantime – which is why for example Dresno destruction wouldn’t happen now (or at least would be perceived differently).

            Also, when you look closely were different stages in in the Ghetto’s history. What is happening now in Gaza brings striking similarities to the early stages.

            I was trying to paste the link to the photos from Gaza and Warsaw Ghetto – unfortunately, there seem to be censorship on this website.

            • “What is happening now in Gaza brings striking similarities to the early stages.”

              Right. Because we all know that the Jews of Warsaw had sworn by Allah to murder every last German that walked the earth.

            • Ohhhh… Times have changed. That’s how a forced ghettoization of formerly free citizens being starved to death equates a Hamas controlled enclave shooting thousands of missiles at Jewish families while also wasting hundreds of millions of dollars building tunnels in order to kidnap Israelis.

              Just fucking retarded. That’s what you are, Marcin. Today, tomorrow and forever.

    • “At least part of the issues you have mentioned is very closely related to Israeli occupation of Palestinian land. You cannot seriously expect majority of Palestinians to not be antisemitic when they are victims of Israeli oppression.”

      Hmmmm….. When an Arab controlled shoots 19,000 missiles at Israel, I’m supposed to listen to the problems. When a depressed teenager is recruited by old, bitter, hate mongers to become a suicide bomb and blow up a pizzeria/dance hall/hotel ballroom, I am told to listen to the Arab. When Israel makes 3 state offers over 15 years, and instead of peace receives 1. 19,000 missiles and 2. blown up pizzerias/dance halls/hotel ballrooms, I am told that no one needs to sign a peace deal with Israel.

      We’ve been listening to morons like you for over 4 decades. When do you start making sense?

    • “Oppression”? You’ve got to be joking!
      Without the largesse of the Israeli government providing water, electricity, health services etc for which payment the PA often defaults, the Palestinian economy would collapse within weeks.
      Have you seen how the Palestinians live on both sides of the Green Line?
      Answer…very well indeed, many in luxuriously appointed villas and apartments.
      It’s about time that the myth of Israeli oppression is blown out of the water.

    • Oh, I see. So you have a theory of cause and effect. I think you might have left out the 14 centuries of Jews in the Middle East living under the jack boot of Arabs and Islam, as well as the fact that “THE Palestinian People TM” are taught a racist type of Jew hatred from the time they can walk, not to mention wiping clean the Jewish historical connection to the land and supplanting it with a presentation of Arabs as some sort of Ur-Volk of Judah with Jews as aliens out to destroy Islam and the Arab nation.
      But forget all that, and keep playing your “Palestine” = Palestinians = Arab= “Palestinian land,” and “if Israel wasn’t doing something just so unspeakably awful to all those nice people everything would be just as right as rain” game.

  8. As long as people continue with the inane idea that we (Jews) somehow “stole” “Palestinian Land” none of this matters.

    That’s the lethal narrative. That’s the problem.

    • Actually, that’s the fact.
      I don’t know about “stealing” (well, illegal settlements may be considered a theft) but yes, Israel is occupying Palestinian Land – while one can argue about the scale, the fact of the occupation itself is not really disputable.

      • Please define “Palestinian Land”. And please follow with….
        WHEN EXACTLY did ANY land become “Palestinian”?

        Yes, I’d appreciate a DATE.

        The so called “Occupation” is in accordance with the Oslo agreement, signed by the “Palestinians”. The land is disputed territory, which the Pals are beholden to negotiate for a piece of as per UN. SEC. Res 242.

      • Fact: Most Palestinians who refused the 3 peace accords made since 2000 consider all of Israel occupied territory.

        Fact: I have a feeling you don’t read much.

        Fact: There’s a book out called From Time Immemorial that will cogently describe the pro-Israeli thought processes.

        Fact: If you decide that Israel’s perspective isn’t worthy of consideration, then you are in no way whatsoever a peace maker.

      • What is Palestinian land?
        Answer. Land that is “Palestinian” because the Arabs who have colonised it say it is.
        Neither are the re settlements illegal but perfectly legal in international law.
        This so called illegal status is simply propaganda, latched onto by nations with financial “interests” both in selling armaments to Arab states and to enjoy their huge market places to sell consumer goods.
        This obscene lie needs to be exposed for what it is.

    • Well said and something that successive Israeli governments insanely and fearfully refuse to address.
      One side shamelessly claims another people’s territory as its own, whilst the other side, the rightful owners, is intimidated by the so-called oppressed. What a shameful absurdity!

      • Since the Jews who went to Palestine in the 1880s did not bring an army with them but were civilians, how could they colonise the country. Any land that they acquired was bought from absentee landlords in perfectly legal transactions under the laws of the Ottoman Empire which ruled Palestine at that time. The Europeans, by contrast, created colonies in Africa and elsewhere by means which often included war, for example in Rhodesia and in New Zealand from the 1840s to the 1870s, after which there were large scale land confiscations. This is the only instance I know of where the term colonisation is applied to the legal purchase of land. After 1948, hundreds of thousands of Jews in Arab countries found that they were no longer welcome and were forced to leave and go to Israel. Interestingly, far more German prisoners of war were allowed to emigrate to the USA after the end of WW2 than Jewish survivors of whom just under 1,000 were graciously allowed to stay by President Truman. As for the 700,000 Jewish refugees from Arab lands, virtually all of them arrived penniless in Israel and had to be absorbed. Meanwhile, The Gaza Strip and the West Bank, that could have formed the nucleus of a Palestinian state were occupied by Egypt and Transjordan, respectively. When Egypt and ISrael negotiated a treaty that returned Sinai to Egypt, the Egyptians demanded that Israel accept responsibility for administering the Gaza Strip. As for the West Bank, it was in 1988 that King Hussein accepted that he now longer had any claim to the West Bank, which he handed over to the PLO.