Belfast Telegraph

‘Radical’ Irish commentator Eamonn McCann and false Zionist quotes


Eamonn McCann is a “socialist activist” and Irish political commentator who often regales readers with anti-Zionist agitprop so hyperbolic that it could have originated from Soviet Department for Agitation and Propaganda.

McCann has expressed support for Hamas and Hezbollah, hurled a version of the ‘Zionism equals racism’ charge, evoked the ‘chosen people’ canard, suggested that Jews falsely cry antisemitism to stifle debate on Israel and ruminated over whether “rich Zionists” control US foreign policy.

In his latest intellectually unserious attack on Israel, published at the Belfast Telegraph (Silence deafening over Netanyahu’s disgusting racism, Feb. 24), McCann complains that there’s a dearth of critical scrutiny over the racist sins of the Jewish state.  As you’ll see, what McCann refers to as Israel’s “compendium of bigotry” involves a few alleged quotes by Israeli prime ministers, all either taken out of context, distorted or otherwise misrepresented.

Palestinians are “wild beasts”.

The first example McCann cites is Netanyahu’s alleged reference “to Palestinians” as “wild beasts”, a ‘racist’ charge, he complains, that didn’t elicit even a “mild condemnation in the mainstream media”.  

McCann is wrong on two counts.

First, the Hebrew word Netanyahu used in the speech is more accurately translated to “predators”, rather than “wild beasts”. More importantly, Netanyahu was speaking in the context of a fence the state is building around the country to protect against terror attacks, and was clearly referring narrowly to jihadists and other terrorists as “predators”, not most or all Palestinians.

Then, McCann provides his other “examples” of official Israeli racism in an attempt to contextualize Netanyahu’s remarks by citing a supposed history of Israeli prime ministers engaging in racist and dehumanizing rhetoric about Palestinians.:

Netanyahu and a long line of predecessors feel no need for such restraint. The Palestinians are crocodiles, beasts on two legs, grasshoppers to be crushed “and their heads smashed against boulders” previous Israeli Prime Ministers have variously suggested.

There are several “quotes” embedded here – so let’s take them one at a time:

Palestinians are “Grasshoppers to be crushed”

McCann suggests that an Israeli prime minister said that Palestinians are “grasshoppers to be crushed”, a quote which actually goes back to Yitzhak Shamir in 1988. However, columnist Charles Krauthammer wrote at the time, “Shamir did not say that Palestinians will be crushed like grasshoppers”, as some claimed.

In addressing those Palestinians who would launch attacks, Shamir did say, wrote Krauthammer, that “those who would destroy what we are building . . . they are in our sight like grasshoppers” – inversely evoking the Biblical story of the spies sent to the promise land, in which the inhabitants were described as “giants” who would crush the Israelites like “grasshoppers”.

Krauthammer claimed that the word “crushed” in the alleged quote was a media invention.  

Moreover, JTA’s Ron Kampeas and our own Richard Millett have both addressed the charge and agreed with Krauthammer’s other observation that Shamir, in the quote in question, was clearly only referring to those who would launch attacks – not all or most Palestinian.

Palestinians are “beasts on two legs”.

McCann’s quote stems from allegations that former Israeli prime minister Menachem Begin called Palestinians ‘beasts’ on two legs – or some version of that.  However, back in 2004, CAMERA refuted this very allegation (which had been promoted by the Indy’s Robert Fisk and radical French-Israeli journalist, Amnon Kapeliouk).

CAMERA showed that Begin was talking, not about “the Palestinians” but about terrorists who target Israel children.  Specifically, on June 8, 1982, Begin addressed the Knesset and talked about defending the children of Israel:

The children of Israel will happily go to school and joyfully return home, just like the children in Washington, in Moscow, and in Peking, in Paris and in Rome, in Oslo, in Stockholm and in Copenhagen. The fate of… Jewish children has been different from all the children of the world throughout the generations. No more. We will defend our children. If the hand of any two-footed animal is raised against them, that hand will be cut off, and our children will grow up in joy in the homes of their parents.

Again, McCann’s allegation that an Israeli prime minister referred to all or most Palestinians as “two-legged beasts” is simply not true.

Palestinians are “crocodiles”

Again, CAMERA investigated this allegation, and came to the following conclusion:

Whoever made this reference — and it is far from clear that it was [Ehud] Barak — seemed to be talking about the Palestinian government negotiators who were demanding more control over Jerusalem. According to the AFP news agency, a close aide to Barak was reported to have said: “In a few weeks we will know if the Palestinians want peace and are prepared to look at the compromise proposals on Jerusalem put forward by (US) President Bill Clinton at Camp David or if they are like crocodiles, which the more they eat the hungrier they are.” Israeli Arab Knesset member Ahmed Tibi later accused Barak of being that “close aide,” but this was never confirmed.

Clearly, McCann’s supposed examples of Israeli racism are compromised by distorted quotes and a mischaracterization of the context to falsely suggest the prime ministers in question were describing most or all Palestinians rather than merely terrorists.

To paraphrase Benny Morris’s searing criticism of a widely maligned book on the “Israel lobby”, if Eamonn McCann’s op-ed was an actual person, we would have to say that he did not have a single honest bone in his body.

279 replies »

  1. I think Eammon McCann said it best himself. “I am a waste of space. A total loser. I’ve been hating teh Joos my whole life, and nobody, no facts, no sense of logic or reason, will stop my twiddling thoughts which stem from my mother’s basement, but only when my pants are down around my ankles. Otherwise, my thinking parts can’t breathe.

    “I am Eammon. You can’t pronounce my name, and I will never, EVER, be able to point Israel out on a map. That’s how fucking ridiculously pathetic and batshit idiotic I happen to be.”

  2. I don’t get it. It is (quite rightly) perfectly normal in the West to say that the perpetrators of a terrorist attack are animals, worse than animals, scum, filth, demons, devils, a cancer etc etc. That’s not racist. So why shouldn’t Israeli Prime Ministers be able to enjoy the same freedom of speech that leaders of other Western countries enjoy?

  3. Mr McCann follows in the well established tradition of Irish Jew hatred. Even 112 years after the Limerick pogrom such hatred is still there. His sympathy for Hamas and Hezbollah echoes the letter of condolence sent by Eamon de Valera on hearing of the death of Adolf Hitler. Perhaps McCann should spend a little more time now figuring how the Irish might form a government now his party has been schmeissed in the General Election. That would certainly be a more constructive use of his time.

    • Plus Ireland, the elected government of Ireland chose to be NEUTRAL in WW2.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_neutrality_during_World_War_II

      They couldn’t bring themselves to TAKE SIDES between the US/UK and National SOCIALISM.

      “Condolences on Hitler’s death

      Ireland maintained a public stance of neutrality to the end by refusing to close the German and Japanese Legations, and the Taoiseach Éamon de Valera signed the book of condolence on Adolf Hitler’s death on 2 May 1945, and personally visited Ambassador Hempel, following the usual protocol on the death of a Head of State of a state with a legation in Ireland. President Douglas Hyde visited Hempel separately on 3 May.[46] The visits caused a storm of protest in the United States.[47] Irish envoys in other nations did likewise, but no other Western European democracies followed Ireland’s example.[48]”

      de valera was a fascist.

  4. “Show me your friends and I will tell you who you are!” as the Romans said. As Eamonn is friends with people who call Jews pigs and monkeys and everybody not complaint with their fatalist head banging “kaffirs” or infidels, it is not surprising he is not observant enough to see he has been conned by those who are more subtle than his b & w disproportionately theological culture. Incidentally how much did the Irish emigrants to the Americas and Australia pay the Indians and Aborigines for the lands they now occupy???

    • They didn’t pay anything and killed off the native people in their droves but the difference is that, unlike what’s happening now at the hands of the occupiers in Palestine, what happened in Australia, North and South America are now considered crimes against humanity. We are now watching a crime against humanity and doing nothing about it. In fact there’s a lot of support from Western powers for it but even the strongest stomachs are beginning to get sick of this modern holocaust.

      • The Crime Against Humanity is that waged by Islamofascists and Socialists, who support World Wide Terrorism against ALL PEOPLE – yes, even Muslims are killed by Islamofascists TODAY.

        See the 250,000+ dead in the Syrian Civil War between Islamofascist ISIS and the Islamofascist Assad family dictatorship AND todays “Suicide Attack Kills at Least 47 South of Iraqi Capital”

        That’s why checkpoints at airports world-wide are a necessary inconvenience, to prevent another 9/11, Metrojet, Pan Am 103.

      • Holocaust is a Greek word of religion for a sacrifice being entirely burnt and not becoming the communion meal of the sacrificers. As the Arabs of Palestine have thrived gloriously on UNWRA handouts and foreign aid to PA kleptocrats and there are now ten million Arabs claiming to be “Palestinians” to some degree do be careful with the words or you appear ridiculous – like Humpty Dumpty in Alice land.

        • Eammon McCann, crimes against humanity and genocide you’ve got this 100% correct just the wrong perpetrators and victims. Every Muslim country including the areas of Gaza and the PA is experiencing a depopulation over the past 15 years with Jihad and Muslim intolerance for anyone other than Believers to occupy any territory once settled by Believers. This includes swaths of Europe. 10s of 1000s of Christians have been slaughtered from Africa to the Philippines. Gaza and the PA is no different. Convert, Pay a Jizyah leave or die. Eammon you might not want to know that the Christian population in Israel increased the only country in the Mid-East not to decrease. Gaza and the PA can easily stand before the ICC for Crimes Against Humanity and Genocide. Read the Charter of HAMAS and the PLO.

  5. This article seems to miss the whole point, while complaining about some probable misquotes about Netanyahu, it fails to mention that one of the biggest crimes against humanity is being perpetrated by a entity that some call Israel, which entity is an ally of the West. The correct name of the land is Palestine and those who are sometimes called Israelis are in fact occupiers. I know many of them resort to voodoo and claim that their god gave them the land but if I turn up in Belfast and claim that the tooth fairy gave me the place, I’m sure that I’ll get a warm welcome – very warm. As for building walls to keep the natives out, well that should go down a ton. Even better, if the international community support my efforts. Isn’t time to stop arguing about who said what and stop being silent in the face of this genocide.

    • Bobby, You ignorant git, YOU miss the whole point.

      If Israel were the problem, then Muslims would be living in Peace with NON-Israelis, NON-Zionists, NON-Jews.

      Are they?

      – 9/11
      – 1993 truck bombing of the WTC
      – bombing of Pan Am 103
      – invasion and attack on the 1972 Olympics in Munich
      – bombing of Metrojet
      – Charlie Hebdo massacre
      – Bataclan massacre
      – Mumbai India massacre
      – Nairobi Kenya mall massacre
      – Boston Marathon bombing
      – 7/7/05 London transport bombings
      – beheading of British soldier Lee Rigby
      – Ottawa attack
      – Copenhagen attack
      – Sydney attack
      – Bali massacre
      – Madrid train bombings
      – Beslan school massacre
      – Bombing of the two 1,500 year old Buddahs in Bamiyan Afghanistan
      – ISIS beheading, drowning, buring captives
      – 8 year Iraq/Fascist Iran war – 1,000,000 dead
      – ISIS/Assad war – 250,000 dead
      – San Bernardino massacre
      – death fatwa on writer Salman Rushdie by some fascist ayatollah
      – near nuclear war between Pakistan and India (a dispute over ownership of land – Kashmir)
      – Boko Haram killing people in Nigeria
      – Taliban shooting girls in the head for wanting an education (Malala)
      – rallies in fascist iran, screaming for death to America

      BTW Bobby, why are there checkpoints at every airport in the world, screening passengers and luggage???

      Chant this next time,

      From the River to the Sea,
      Paleswine Will Never Be!

      • For the vast majority of Israeli Jews and some within the wider diaspora, the illegal claim for Palestinian land is predicated on the fascist aspiration for Eretz Yisrael.

        • The Illegal claim of the Land of Israel by Arabs/Muslims from Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Fascist Iran is predicated on Islamist Imperialism and Islamofascism.

          • The proof is that in all cultures names classify broadly as patro/matronymics or place of origin – toponymics – and then by trades or personal physical or moral qualities. eg the original Shakespeare was short tempered and the original Lillee was a blond. On this basis the vast number of people named Masri or Misri in the Gaza Strip proves the argument that large numbers of Egyptians migrated to British Palestine because development always attracts immigrants and Egypt is the bottomless well of the most emigration within the Arab World. In 1948 as they rushed home to understandably dodge the war they were locked out of Egypt in a cynical move of the Farouk the Crook Government.
            The British estimated as much Arab immigration to the Mandate as Jewish immigration and the proof is all over the family names if you know the local geography and more in the British migration records. The border control cards are still in archives and revealed that of the 50 000 known inward travellers a quarter to a third were fiancees [fem] on the way to their weddings as no doubt grooms had infiltrated the borders unofficially before; and of the leavers a good fraction had not been born in the Palestine Mandate nor the then Trans-Jordan.

            Similarly at the end of June 67 the Israelis after due notice imposed a day’s total curfew and going house to house took a census which revealed 960 000 Arabs and others living in the occupied territories. Of these 40 000 had also been born outside the Palestine Mandate inclusive Jordan. A little fewer croc tears for native sons of th soil please!

    • If you turn up in Belfast (with or without a tooth fairy) you will find a variety of walls built “to keep the natives out”. If you go to Israel – the correct name of the country that is a UN member – you will find a warm welcome even with views like yours. You will however get less of a welcome from the international community to support your efforts, because the international community is waking up to the reality of the situation. Who the hell do you think you are that the international community should support YOUR efforts? Voodoo by the way originated in Benin and is an African religion much of which has been accommodated by Catholicism.

      Reading your post persuades me to believe in alternative universes.

      • Belfast suffers from the same problem as Palestine – occupation by a foreign power. Interestingly, some of the strongest support for the occupiers of Palestine come from the Unionist sector in Northern Ireland but they were also great supporters of that other apartheid state – the old South Africa. I try not to use the word Israel as, in my books, it refers to an ancient biblical state and like Mesopotamia it no longer exists. So I refer to the land as the Occupied Palestinian Territories or OPT for short.
        I’m aware of the origins of voodoo and note that it’s still very popular all around the world, usually under different guises – Catholicism, Zionism, Mohammedanism and many other daft belief systems. By the way I don’t ask anybody to join me in my beliefs and I don’t believe in hell. I do think that some people, such as the Palestinians lives are made a hell through no fault of their own – only the fact that somebody else wants their land.

        • You really are mixed up aren’t you. Palestine was a province of various caliphates and empires latterly the Ottoman and British Empires. It was never an independent state and there were no people called Palestinians until the term was introduced in about 1964. The land belonged to others for the main part and much of it was purchased by Jews from Arabs after 1880 with the Arab sheikhs being more than willing sellers. People like you continue to peddle historical revisionism for malign motives. You may use your own invention of OPT because you OPT for falsehoods.

          • My opinions seem to generate an awful lot of anger. I think Michael’s answer is a little disingenuous. Of course Palestine did not exist before a certain time – same as many other states in the world but even a cursory glance at the map from about 1946 onward shows the occupiers advances. Also the daily images of beatings, shootings and dispossession of Palestinians are not depicting people happily selling their land. I presume somebody is going to tell me that these are enormous pantomimes acted out for propaganda purposes. By the way I don’t peddle anything.
            Edward mentions that Ireland remained neutral during WW2. So did Switzerland and many other countries but Irish men in their tens of thousands died fighting for the allies. Irish men also fought fascism when it first reared it’s ugly head in Spain (1936-39). Irish people are still proudly fighting against it’s latest incarnation in OPT.
            Edward also gave me a list of atrocities but for a moment I thought it was the daily shopping list of the IDF but if he looks closer he will notice that I have no time for voodoo, whether it is Christian, Muslim or Zionist voodoo.

            • Fascism is Ireland led to Ireland under fascist de valera to chose to be Neutral towards Socialist hitler. Immoral Ireland could not chose between Freedom and Fascism. The Irish men who fought for the allies did so AGAINST the will of the fascist government of Ireland.

              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89amon_de_Valera

              “Controversially,[70] de Valera formally offered his condolences to the German Minister in Dublin on the death of Adolf Hitler in 1945, in accordance with diplomatic protocol.[71] This did some damage to Ireland, particularly in the United States – and soon afterwards de Valera had a bitter exchange of words with Winston Churchill in two famous radio addresses after the end of the war in Europe.[72]”

              Today we see fascists in Ireland siding with Islamofascism and Fascist Pal-e-SWINIAN voodoo.

            • Millions of Irish excuse their responsibility because at the time they were British subjects, simply pinched the land of North American Indians and Australian aborigines and are still thriving on it without ever having paid anything. Physician heal thyself first then offer solutions to the Arab anger with themselves and the World apart from Israel.
              Incidentally why of all Europe was Ireland so niggardly with Jewish refugees in the 30’s or after 1945?

              • I think I dealt with this earlier and am no apologist for the genocide of Australian or US first peoples. Also, I would acknowledge the awful part played by Irish people in these pogroms. I think that we should apologise for them. The difference is that, we now have a chance to speak out against an ongoing crime against humanity in OPT (Occupied Palestinian Territories).

                • So how do you propose to deal with the utter refusals of the Arabs to compromise about reality that has resulted from their previous refusals to compromise? If there is to be peace in the area it has to include the Arab parties recognising an end to the conflict and it was precisely their refusal to do so that scuppered the Olmert offer half a dozen years back. Meanwhile if they want a war they can hardly object to the deployment of warlike measures.

                • Ireland should take a couple of hundred thousand “refugees” (mostly military age male) from Arabia, Africa. It should help to DIVERSIFY the population of Ireland and enrich its culture.

                  gerry adams should welcome them at the docks.

          • My opinions seem to generate an awful lot of anger. I think Michael’s answer is a little disingenuous. Of course Palestine did not exist before a certain time – same as many other states in the world but even a cursory glance at the map from about 1946 onward shows the occupiers advances. Also the daily images of beatings, shootings and dispossession of Palestinians are not depicting people happily selling their land. I presume somebody is going to tell me that these are enormous pantomimes acted out for propaganda purposes. By the way I don’t peddle anything.
            Edward mentions that Ireland remained neutral during WW2. So did Switzerland and many other countries but Irish men in their tens of thousands died fighting for the allies. Irish men also fought fascism when it first reared it’s ugly head in Spain (1936-39). Irish people are still proudly fighting against it’s latest incarnation in OPT.
            Edward also gave me a list of atrocities but for a moment I thought it was the daily shopping list of the IDF but if he looks closer he will notice that I have no time for voodoo, whether it is Christian, Muslim or Zionist voodoo.

            • Bobby, How about Ireland taking several thousand “Rapefugees”, as a token of Irelands solidarity with sand nazis, rapists, head choppers, terrorists?

              • Robert you are right to claim that some Irishmen fought for the Irish International Brigades Connolly Column, but what you neglect to mention is that even more Irishmen were part of O’Duffy’s Irish Brigade that fought for Franco and Fascism.

                Are there more pages missing from your ‘book’s?

                • Gerald, I know a lot about the Irish Brigade and spent time with the last few surviving members. One of my friends is a leading expert on the subject. Very brave men indeed and took the fight to fascism, when it was in it’s infancy. At the time. of course it was a much loved doctrine amongst European leaders and particularly the British royal family. Pity it wasn’t stopped in it’s tracks there and then. O’Duffy’s Brigade were a pitiful lot and are the subject of much mirth here, as the only action they saw was in Dublin where they roughed-up a few left-leaning people. Most of them were kept well away from the action in Spain but I wouldn’t deny the propaganda value, especially with the Roman Catholic links. Which brings me back to my pet hate – Voodoo – in this case the Roman Catholic church.
                  Again, as I said in an earlier reply we have strayed from the subject – the continuing, brutal and illegal occupation of Palestinian lands.

                  • Robert I agree that there were, as you put it, “Very brave men indeed and took the fight to fascism, when it was in it’s infancy”
                    Like you I am also disgusted by, as you put it, “.. the continuing, brutal and illegal occupation of Palestinian lands.”
                    That is why I am sure you will join me in saluting the brave men and women of the Israel Defence Forces (IDF) in their continuing fight against the Fascist thugs of Hamas who are brutally and illegally occupying Gaza.

                    • It is an illegal occupation according to the UN. That is probably why the occupiers have ignored over 30 UN declarations.

                    • Try justifying the swollen headed Arab prats whose original sin was to reject the UN181 resolution which proposed two states and so started the conflict they have never had the courage to admit they started and lost. Nobody is in a position to reproach Israel over UN resolutions when the claque of Soviet clients and Third World circus seals repeatedly refused and refuses to ever condemn the Arabs promotion of frontier violence and wars while wasting a third of UN time on repeat resolutions to no purpose because they do not demand anything from the Arab persistence in conflict. A peace will need BOTH sides including the Arabs to bury the hatchet and recognise the end of the conflict. While assorted Arab extremists persist in calling not just Israel but all Jews “pigs and monkeys ” and meriting of death, the war will continue.

                    • Robert so I take your silence to mean assent and you, like I, condemn the illegal and brutal occupation of Gaza by the Fascist thugs of Hamas.
                      Or are you going to surprise me by being inconsistent?

                    • “Illegal”? By whose standards? Those of the Islamofascist and Socialist Hijacked UN?

                      What is the UN doing about ISIS, Al Qada, Taliban, Boko Haram, Hamass, Al Nusra, Al Shabab, genocidal Fascist iran, Hamass, PLO which attacked the 1972 Olympics?

                      How many thousands of military age Muslim refugees has your “neutral” Ireland taken in?

                    • Israel is as legally in former Jordanian “West Bank” as it was legal for the Allies to occupy Germany, Austria and Japan after 1945. For that matter for the late Soviet Union to occupy the “Baltic States” pinch Ruthenia from Czechoslovakia and South Sakhalin from Japan.
                      If Israel is still in the former Jordanian “West Bank” it is perhaps because in June ’67 when Israel offered to return to the Green Line in return for a peace treaty (1) ending the conflict and (2) recognising the Green Line as the legal and mutually agreed frontier, the Arab World all rather daftly refused the offer as if they could get a better one – from whom?????

            • you would be running over to the IDF for protection in the OPT when the HAMAS gonna rape your ARSE for being an Irish intellectual idjut patronisingly thinking he understands whats going on

              I aint talking some intellectual tripe . That’s what happens to you guys when you go over there to ‘help’ and then realise that their definition of help doesn’t match your expectations .

              http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/mar/28/britons-kidnapped-sexually-assaulted-libya
              http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-life/11049739/Female-aid-worker-in-Gaza-and-Middle-East-I-could-be-kidnapped-too.html
              http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2011/04/2011414194735306181.html

              picked news sources you probably regard as credible [lol] but look into it before you ban humus from your café or something radical . The people you claim to help scoff and scorn at you .

              • DeValera has been dead for about 40 years now and he’s not a leader that I admired. WW2 ended in 1946 or thereabouts. However, once again we seem to have strayed from the present day, continuing, brutal occupation of Palestinian land. This seems to be the norm in this kind of discussion – to throw in some other scenario and take the discussion away from the subject. I freely admit to not liking many of the policies of successive Irish governments, especially the allowing of US warplanes land here on their way to bomb, kill and maim people in other countries. We bomb hell out of their countries and then beat hell out of the ensuing refugees.

                • Fascist Friendly de valera has been dead for 40 years, but his Fascist Friendly policies continue to this day in Cowardly “Neutral” Ireland. See gerry adams and the islamofascist friendly ira.

                  Why doesn’t Ireland open its doors and welcome all refugees from the Muslim on Muslim genocidal wars and economic refugees from Africa? Wouldn’t Ireland be enriched by this Diversity?

                • Robert it is interesting that DeValera was not a Leader you admired.
                  What is also interesting is that you and a very few others stood outside the GPO in Dublin, in the rain, to commemorate the death of Hugo Chavez.
                  Are there any other dictators that you admire?

                  • By Gosh – my expression of a purely personal opinion seems to have set of a flood of anger. I cannot reply to all because of the sheer volume.
                    Firstly on Hugo Chavez, probably in my own humble opinion, one of the greatest leaders the world has seen in recent times. I had the pleasure and honour of being an observer at one of the electoral processes in Venezuela and I have never seen a more watertight and transparent process in my life. Even the experts in the US (including Jimmy Carter) cannot find fault in it. Interestingly, it seems that the machines that perform the computer logistics were manufactured in the USA and specifically in Jeb Bush’s parish. When questioned in Venezuela and back home about my experience, I had to admit that the actual process of vote casting in the West is in the Dark Ages. Recent viewing of the process in the US caucus only confirmed this view. I note that you called Chavez a dictator even though he submitted to the democratic process more often that any other leader in the world at present. The proof of this is that in the last elections the opposition won and a peaceful handover of power has begun. Personally, i think that, as the new voodoo called neo-liberalism kicks in, there’s going to be a lot more insurrection in Latin America.
                    Many of the opinions, I’ve received are about the corruption within Palestinian organisations. Others express the cruelty of many of the Islamist factions. The argument is not about these known facts.
                    If you want to talk about corruption, what about the biggest con ever, called austerity, under whose cloak, money was transferred upwards to an elite and done worldwide.
                    If you want to talk about violence, how do you expect people to react when, as it’s mistakenly called “the only democracy in the Middle East” has continually occupied Palestine for seven decades now and with appalling daily violence meted out to the real owners of the land. Why would you be surprised that these victims react with joy when they see the main backers(USA) suffering, as in the twin towers. I presume that they felt that, at last, the shoe is on the other foot. Personally, I wouldn’t subscribe to this, as I feel an American death is just as bad as a Palestinian one. However, I’ve been proven wrong in this assumption. I was in Nicaragua in the eighties, at the height of the US terrorist campaign against the democratically elected Sandinista government. Previous to the fall of the Somoza dictatorship a US reporter had been assassinated by Somoza’s troops in full view of the Western television and this proved a turning point in the US support for the dictator. The tens of thousands of Nicaraguans didn’t count. So there is a hierarchy of death.
                    I cannot reply to many of the comments, as they are purely abusive and name-calling. I was taught that once one resorted to this, one had already lost the argument.
                    Another correspondent called me an intellectual. I don’t know whether I should be delighted or insulted by this but I’ll take it as a compliment, particularly as I’ve never been to college and am, in fact, a retired van driver and manual labourer.

                    • socialist dictator hugo chavez said at the UN that he smelled sulfur in the air, well now he really does in his eternal home.

                    • We seem to have branched off into a discussion of who gave salutes and when, which is probably as good a time as any to leave the conversation. Interestingly in an earlier post you did the Hilary Clinton somersault by stating that democracies are only democracies when we say so. She changed her mind about Venezuela and declared it a democracy when the opposition won the elections. In some cases you cannot win.

                    • Robert on Hugo Chavez.

                      First unlike you I have not been to Venezuela, but I did meet Hugo Chavez up close and personal (shook his hand and looked into his eyes) when he was in London 10 years ago. My opinion of Chavez is different to yours.

                      Second, just because someone goes through some form of electoral system does not mean that they are a democrat and not a dictator. History is full of examples of those who were elected but still were or became dictators.

                      Democracy is about a lot more than just elections, even if they are held regularly.

                • W II ended in 1945 and in 1947 the two peoples in Palestine were offered a reasonable partition for a state each. The Arabs spent 1947 threatening a fight if a plan for the area mentioned partition then they led with their chins and lost – tough – and subsided into Jordanian territory till 1967 when the process repeated itself at Soviet instigation. The Catholic Church might not accept divorce but most others especially Moslems do, and when a marriage is not working it is cruel to refuse to dismantle it and let people get on with the rest of their lives.

                  • I’ve unsubscribed from now because the name-callers and rabid dogs are back. Frank, you and one or two other noble exceptions are not included in that august company but my mailbox was filling up with pro-OPT hate mail. I’m particularly fond of the argument that the Arabs would not agree to the partitioning of their own land. There I leave you

        • “I try not to use the word Israel as, in my books, it refers to an ancient biblical state and like Mesopotamia it no longer exists”

          Clearly your ‘books’ are missing a few pages Robert.

        • Gerry Adams name advertises his family are Anglo Saxons and Norman mix so who are the foreigners in Ulster?

            • So majorities do not count ? and like Enoch Powell you count immigrant as a hereditary status? Similar to your Arab Humpty Dumpty friends on refugees ? The word means what I want it to mean? Corrupt the words and the facts and you will deservedly scratch yourself on the wreckage.

    • “a entity that some call Israel, which entity is an ally of the West. The correct name of the land is Palestine” – another ignorant prick.
      BTW, ignorant prick: I am an atheist. The Jews are the indigenous people of Israel, regardless of religion.

  6. First of all. sorry for long post . I usually like to keep em short and sweet but I hadn’t drunk my coffee yet .

    Robert

    Allow yourself to consider this reality for a moment –

    A man with a sun tan and middle eastern accent knocks on your door and says . Hello I am from Yemen and I am here to help you Robert find your way in life and get sorted . He pulls a ruck sack off his back and passes it to you . It is crammed with £5.8 billion . Are you gonna take the ruck sack and in broken Arabic agree with him and the bollox he is saying ? And would you just agree with him to just take the money ?

    Well You may be a strong character with clear thoughts on how you are gonna spend the money . Build a really good local hospital , colleges , jobs , food development , industrial development , helping the poor and needy and all that . Good on you . However , be honest here . If the man knocked at your neighbours house . he may not be so noble as you . He may take that 5.8 billion and decide to put some in Switzerland , some in some real estate luxury hotels , some in tunnels to carry misery not electricity or cable tv . He may spend the 5.8 bil and then think to himself . Oh I will go ask that idiot who gave me free money for some more. He seems to like me .

    Corruption …tssssskkk . it gets to everyone . There is a hell of a lot of $ raised and where does it all go , Robert ?
    The leaders in Gaza who took over by chucking the Fatah previous leaders off tower blocks for living in 5 star style now seem to live in 5 star style . A corrupt person looks upon a sincere person as a mug , fool and mark .
    Tell me what have they spent their aid on ?
    here are a couple of clues

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/aug/08/gaza-first-five-star-hotel
    http://www.thetower.org/0707-while-gazans-suffer-in-poverty-leaders-of-hamas-live-in-luxury/
    http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2013/01/gaza-tunnel-millionaires.html
    http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3308/gaza-millionaires

    did you know that there are over 600 millionaires in Gaza ? This is common knowledge . A simple ggogly search thingy is all you need to do to educate yourself a bit further about whats real .

    so who is causing suffering to whom and for what gain become questions you will find painful to ignore when you go out and pass over hard earned charity money to the very devils who are pissing in your face ?
    and do you take responsibility for encouraging and supporting these corrupts?

    • This again seems irrelevant to the subject being discussed – the brutal, illegal occupation of Palestinian land. Of course, there’s corruption in Gaza. Like every other country in the world. I’m not searching for some non-existent Nirvana. There’s a well known saying “Charity is the enemy of Justice”

      • hang on lad ….. you going myopic all of a sudden .
        If the topic is the brutal illegal occupation of Palestinian lands I just highlighted the biggest brutes for you . The chappies that you give money to .Running their rackets . How come you turn blind eye to that ? Surely a good Palestinian state should be led by good people ? How come you backing the bad guys ?
        Now be honest Robert . You know you backing the bad guys or not ? or you genuinely believe Hamas and Islamic Jihad and Fatah are the proper way forward ?
        I am not talking about a little itsy bitsy bitta nibbling of the side type corruption . Arafat, when he died was a billionaire . Haniyah been living in 5 star suites in Gulf States and Turkey for however long and his wealth estimated in the billions . We are talking about serious mocking of you . You don’t seem the type of lad when pee being distributed to step forward and open his mouth .

        • Also Arafats beard wife, Suha, the former First Lady of Paleswine, doesn’t live with her people, Suha and her daughter lived in Paris, and later Tunisia. Anywhere BUT Paleswine.

          I wonder why that is????

          • I would also try to live in some other place than the Warsaw ghetto that OPT have made of Palestine and particularly Gaza.

            • Hamass hides in bunkers, deep underground, and forces men, women and children to be HUMAN SHIELDS for weapons caches.

              Gaza is 1945 Berlin – and the Israelis are NOT the unarmed Jews of WW2.

              Bobby, How close would you be willing to stand to a spot where a Hamass rocket was heading towards?

            • People who throw around similes that are in flagrant error of fact are riding for a fall. The photos of the Warsaw Ghetto show the unmistakeable signs of serious starvation. Photographs from Gaza are of people with well fed faces. I taught for long enough in Greater Manchester and know a malnourished face when I see it The photographs of Palestine children and Gaza children in particular are not deprived – except of childhood by one track mind ideologues filling them up on death and paradise with virgins.

        • Dear Mr.Curd – I don’t personally give money to anybody or organisation in Palestine. I do see daily (and sometimes more often) images of the brave IDF soldiers harassing children, women, beating up young men and even murdering them. This is all happening in, note – Palestine. I have never mentioned Hamas or Fatah. So, it cannot be inferred that I support them. I do remember elections that Hamas won, much to the annoyance of OPT.

          • and there we have it !

            very noble of ya , Robert . You deliberately look one way . You never seen Pali on Pali violence Arab on Christian violence , Mobster on hardworking honest person violence, Arab on Jew violence . Tttssssck . Blood is the colour red in all people isn’t it ?
            —You pretending again.

            You do see daily and sometimes more often images of brave IDF soldiers ….. Now that’s kind of kinky daily looking up images of the IDF . shows obsessive tendencies . Do you show the pictures daily or more to your girlfriend ?
            so how long you been ‘into’ IDF soldiers without actually checking out the place . You know….going over there ? or does looking at the pictures take just too much time up and energy?
            —This bit , sadly is probably true

            lols . your Irish white botty would last 8-10 days at most in Gaza . You would wander up to some local hamas patrol , not recognise them as anything but freedom fighters . Ask them for directions to your hotel . And that’s it , mate . Your parents get sent your y-fronts in the post with a ransom note .

            sorry , everyone but you seems to know what would happen to you in Gaza and we all obviously wrong ! I am rolling on the floor in laughter thinking of you over there with a map in your hand and a bunch of photos in the other explaining to one of the locals that you don’t support Hamas or Fatah and they living in the OPT . They just gonna lurf you .

            another person with hollow words called Robert Navan . Thinks he knows what he is talking about but never tried a piece of the cake.

          • I remember videos of ISIS beheading captives, burning a Jordanian pilot alive, Islamofascists stoning women to death, Taliban cutting off the nose of a girl who was pictures on the cover of Time magazine, videos of Pal-e-SWINIANS celebrating 9/11.

            • no sorry doesn’t count as Robert Navan didn’t see the photos so the events did happen

  7. To come to the point without, heaven forfend, straying elsewhere to deflect criticism let us address your assertion “the brutal, illegal, occupation of Palestinian land.” Well Robert it is not brutal, although what goes on amongst Palestinians certainly is; it is not an illegal occupation except according to your opinion and, it is not Palestinian land for reasons I explained in my first post. However I have to admit that in the Gospel according to Saint Robert of Navan there is a different narrative. There were already four different narratives and now there are five.

  8. As of 2013, Israel had been condemned in 45 resolutions by United Nations Human Rights Council since its creation in 2006—the Council had resolved almost more resolutions condemning Israel than on the rest of the world combined.
    No doubt my correspondents will cry “fiendish fascist plot”

    • How many resolutions has the UN Human Rights Council issued against Saudi Arabia, Fascist Iran, Syria, Sudan, Mauritania, China, North Korea, Venezuela, Cuba?

      Does the UNHRC have anything to say about Current Day Slavery in Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Mauritania?
      How about the Hamass Charter of 1988 – still in effect?
      How about Fascist Irans calls for death to America? How about the US RESPONDING and calling for DEATH to IRAN?

    • “As of 2013, Israel had been condemned in 45 resolutions by United Nations Human Rights Council since its creation in 2006—the Council had resolved almost more resolutions condemning Israel than on the rest of the world combined” –

      you are the quintessential moron who is presented with facts and draws the wrong conclusions from them.

  9. Somewhat off-point from the discussion at hand and as far back as the 80s, when I saw the type of reporting being done by foreign correspondents during the 82’ Lebanon War. Many correspondents resided at the Commodore Hotel controlled by the PLO didn’t leave the hotel and accepted as fact the PLO spokesman. Correspondents back in Israel reported as if they were at the front lines when in fact they were back in Israel getting their news from other sources.
    I believe if we really want to stab the heart of the Anti-Israel/Anti-Semite reporting is to thoroughly investigate, social, business, casual connections, financial dealings, asset wealth and sources of wealth of the key players, reporting, editing, and publishing these reports. This should be concurrent to lobbying for full disclosure law so that there is transparency of the people giving us news that we formulate opinions.

    • I’m replying here because of the use of the words anti-semite. The definition I have is;-Semite, person speaking one of a group of related languages, presumably derived from a common language, Semitic (see Semitic languages). The term came to include Arabs, Akkadians, Canaanites, some Ethiopians, and Aramaean tribes including Hebrews. i think that it has come to mean anti-Jewish in recent times. The Jewish people that I know here in Ireland all seem to hold similar views to mine on OPT(sometimes called Israel). I also had the pleasure of meeting one Mike Peelo, who’s grandfather, Dr. Avraham Katnelson was a signer of (Israel’s) Declaration of Independence and whos’ father was a general in the 1948 &1967 wars. He also was uneasy about the present trend of the area. By the way, I have a signed copy of his book “The General’s Son.

      • Being Irish I can understand your confusion over the word anti-semitism. In Irish it is “frith-Ghiúdachas”, the nearest equivalent in English being “Judaeophobia”. Just to enhance your linguistic education for a moment the word anti-semitism was invented by the Germans in 19th century – “Antisemitismus” and then introduced into French as “antisémitisme” and used by Emile Zola in connection with the Dreyfus affair. Thence it came into English. In all three languages the word referred specifically to anti-Jewish views. That was because at that time there were few Arabs or other Semites in Western Europe. So that is the etymology of the word with which you have so much of a problem. Perhaps you might contact the publishers of the Oxford English Dictionary and its French and German equivalents to voice your objections.

        When all is said and done you remain a Judaeophobe and very much a supporter of “frith-Ghiúdachas”. That said I shall now return to my Voodoo and stick pins in your effigy whilst reciting my “Shema Yisroel Adonai Elohaynu” and cursing you in Yiddish translated from the original Yoruba. That’ll show you!

        • The problem here is that my objection is to violence. I don’t like it anywhere – Palestine, Colombia, Syria, Iraq, Honduras – to name but a few. I frequently speak out and write about it. In fact I’m going on a radio programme in the next few hours to discuss the murder of Berta (see: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/mar/03/honduras-berta-caceres-murder-enivronment-activist-human-rights). So, if we take out occupied Palestine from the list, will that mean I’m no longer a Judaeophobe?

          • A fascinating reply Robert….”So, if we take out occupied Palestine from the list, will that mean I’m no longer a Judaeophobe?” By taking “occupied Palestine out of the list” would indeed make you a most certain Judaeophobe. Firstly there would be six and a half million Jewish refugees straight away always assuming that half of them didn’t get massacred by your Palestinian friends. For 68 years the Palestinian Arab leadership has made it clear that no Jew will live amongst them. If you object to violence as you claim you would see the failed states that are Syria, Iraq, Libya, Yemen and, further afield, Afghanistan. You would see that of all those nations the total Jewish population is just 20 souls, and they are all in Yemen. Your ‘OPT’ is now occupied by the refugees from those countries (plus seven others) that originally totalled over 800,000. And you want to establish yet another failed state to replace Israel/Palestine, a state in which the Arab/Muslim attitude is identical to that shown by IS, Hezbollah and Hamas that would result in the persecution and murder of millions not just Jews but Christians, Druze, Yazidis, Samaritans and the wrong type of Muslim too. That would be your Palestinian state and all the evidence available shows that such would be the case.

            Now I shall return to my Talmudic studies… I am just about to begin on Tractate Voodoo!

            • The interesting fact or link with all your so-called “failed states” and I don’t know whether you noticed it, is that they have all been bombed into “failure” by the West or it’s allies. I’m not sure whether the fundamentalist mullahs of the Christian right in the US have noticed that their efforts have also driven out the small Christian populations in many of these countries. We have recently seen the leader of the Christians in Syria and also exiled members of that church, appealing for support for Assad, as their only protector in the area.
              Don’t forget Hamas, Hezbollah, the Taliban and ISIS are all products of the Western alliance, even down to OPT supplying the latter with medical aid and armaments. Of course ISIS couldn’t be beaten – that is until those pesky Ruskies managed to practically wipe them out in a couple of days. Then the West seeing their assets being destroyed, rush to seek a peace agreement. Now the once secular states of Afghanistan, Syria, Libya and Iraq are havens for every known shade of fundamentalist. I imagine, in the long run the main sufferers of this misguided policy will be OPT but also the ordinary people (if there’s any left).

                    • Only trouble with calling me a mullah, is that I’m not a follower of any god or religion. Reality is enough to be going on with. We don’t need myths. As somebody cleverer than I said ” God needs man more that man needs God”

                    • Mullah Navan, When you call Christians mullahs, you can be called a fundamentalist mullah too.

                      A fundamentalist atheist, with your own flesh “gods”, “holy books”, “priests”, “crusades” – people who preach your dogma which you lap up.

                  • The more you confuse the language the less chance of rational and clear resolution of real problems.

              • If I count correctly you have entered 20 postings on this topic already. Why the hell would you do that were you not a zealot?

              • Robert, you confuse ‘fact’ with opinion. Whilst there have been mistaken efforts by western powers to deal with problems in these failed states, they had failed long before that by dint of their own actions. Internecine warfare between tribes and different religious sects has been going on for centuries. Both Saddam Hussein and the Assads were dictators that were able to control these factions albeit brutally. Once the Arab Spring kicked off the touchpaper was alight and all hell has been let loose. It is only in trying to boost the revolutions that the west has reaped the opposite to what was intended. In the case of ‘Palestine’ the fact that Israel controls the situation has meant thankfully that there has been no western powers involved. And before you try to suggest that Israel is simply a part of the United States I must inform you that the vast majority of Israel’s defence expenditure is funded by the Israeli taxpayer and not the US government.

              • Surprising how a promising argument is ruined by a sore thumb of a false PR “fact!” Hizbollah has always been an Iranian creation and agent. Further the West is not he only power fishing in troubled waters – try and explain the motives, rivalries and religious blinkers of Saudi and Iran. They are not puppets but have more than a little money autonomy and free will of their own. People do not usually put up with wars and all their works unless they believe in them. That is the big question over Arab collapses in Palestine compared to the slugging matches in Iran-Iraq in the 80’s and in Iraq and Syria since.

            • I don’t get the first part of your reply. What I meant was that, if I stop complaining about violence against Palestinians and focus on other countries do I lose the title of Judaeophobe. Is it solely reserved for people who talk about aggression etc against Palestinians?

              • Try starting with complaining about violence by Islamofascists against Bahais, Buddhists, Christians, HIndus, Jews and the wrong kind of Muslim.

                Atheists and the fake anti-war activists can just put on the nice orange jumpsuit and kneel on the sand with their back toward the kindly masked ISIS jihadis.

      • Usual sharp talk about other “semites” ! Hating Jews is as old as Pharaoh in the Bible and the Germans called it “Judenhass” but that was a bit coarse so Wilhelm Marr about 1879 invented the pseudo academic & polite “Antisemitismus”. The word is a product of the Gobineau and Galton era of social Darwinism and broad brush human classification by the Aryan language group or skin colour. Those who make excuses about it after the dreadful WW II demo of where it can lead; or try to play games invoking Arabs as fellow victims because Arabic is a Semitic language are dancing on a marsh.

        Jews have seen the Church in all its sects push pretensions to be the “verus Israel” and even more violent and crude Moslem claims that they are the only true religion with accusations of fraud and fakery against Christians and Jews as Arab mobs burn Christian shops in Iraq, Egypt and Syria, and harried Jews out of the lands of their birth. Antisemitism is a fancily fraudulent way of hating Jews for nothing – then you’ll know what you’ll get for something – as the playground joke goes.

        It is not a ploy to stop an argument though a lot of people can not handle the history. As Kissinger said of Stalin – or Herod – just because he is paranoid does not mean he does not have real enemies. Jews have real enemies – or at the most generous the authoritarians of this World consider them disposable egg shells to eat omelette.

  10. Pelo is an Israeli truth-telling hero as is professor Finkelstein and professor Pappe among others.

    • I had three Communist uncles who fought in Hungary, the USSR, France and Israel but all agreed with the WW I slogan for the freedom and rights of small nations – as did the anything but socialist De Valera and Michael Collins. Just because Arabs are a big nation spread across 23 or 24 states as the Germans used to be, does not entitle them to rub out small nations or to invade small states like the Turks in Cyprus. Defaming a legitimate nationalism like Zionism is one good reason why the Palestine Arabs are still without a state because they can not do by others as they would be done by. The Arabs of Palestine were offered a state in 1937 and 1947 and refused and failed in 1947 – 67 when they had the PA Territories to create a state. Since, given the situation, they had given good offers at Madrid Oslo and Camp David and over-reached their bazaar skills for a better offer. Now lie on the bed you rejected. As Sykes Picot Middle East collapses in Syria, Iraq and Lebanon and post- colonial Yemen, is a State of Palestine really necessary compared to returning to being part of Jordan?

    • This is an effective counter argument.

      As is this example from a Google Images search for “arab nazi salute”

      Happy Eternal Nakba!

  11. Mufti was one of many Western-friendly establishment puppets who met Hitler. Your sllly photos counter zilch.

  12. Queen Elizabeths uncle, the fascist duke of windsor was a nazi sympathizer – and that’s why he was kicked off the throne and out of the country, to Bermuda for the whole of WW2.

    The duke should have been hanged.

    Google Images “arab nazi salute” for more Nakba to your cause.

      • Yep. There were British nazis – at the highest levels in WW2 – and there were and ARE Arab nazis at all levels TODAY.

        Google “Lord Haw Haw”.

        Google Images “arab nazi salute”,

        • I agree with you. The political establishment is historically laden with either Nazi’s or those sympathetic to fascist ideals. Scrape away the facade, and the ties remain firmly entrenched within establishment circles, even today and not restricted to fringe parties like UKIP and the EDL – the latter, incidentally, having a relatively high proportion of Jewish neoZionists within its ranks. This is consistent with the notion that the fascist ideology of neoZionism, premised on illegal Israeli expansionism and the aspiration for Eretz Yisrael on the one hand,and the fascist EDL on the other, are ideological bedfellows.. .

          • This is so much defamation pending your figures. Incidentally why confuse issues by pinning neo on descriptors?

  13. I hate 40 word sentences . They are totally undecipherable . I give up at first adverb or adjective or whatever.

    Been reading a good book lately “The Invention of Racism in Classical Antiquity ” Princeton Press 2004 . All about how the Romans and the Egyptians perceived the other nations and tribes .

    Been also watching repeats of Thundercats – BY THE EYE OF THUNDERA !
    Its a cartoon series about a bunch of neo Zio talking cats who want to go home to their own cat world . They have all sorts of adventures. Meet tribes of dog people , fish people , lizard people . Even furry bally creatures .

    • I’ll make it easier for you.

      The political establishment is historically laden with either Nazi’s or those sympathetic to fascist ideals. Scrape away the facade, and the ties remain firmly entrenched within establishment circles.

      Further, these ties are not restricted to fringe parties like UKIP and the EDL. The latter has a relatively high proportion of Jewish neoZionists within its ranks. The notion that fascist neoZionists follow the fascist EDL is consistent with the former’s quest for Eretz Yisrael predicated Israel’s continued illegal expansionism.

      The EDL and neoZionism are ideological bedfellows.. .

      • Daniel I am most interested in the evidence you have for Jewish neoZionists being well represented within the ranks of the EDL. I certainly know of one chap who appears at EDL demos and who wears a yarmulke and waves an Israeli flag. I do know that this guy doesn’t mix with other Jewish people who are visibly in attendance and I have every reason to believe that he is not in fact Jewish at all. Do you have the membership list of the EDL from which you can determine the percentage of Jewish members? If not then I think you have to be very careful about making such an assertion.

        • Erm, my name is Daniel. A basic understanding of syllogism will help you. Let me assist. NeoZionism is a fascist ideology. The EDL are a fascist organisation.

          • Danny, NeoSocialism and Islamofascism are fascist ideologies. The BNP, UAF, IRA, PLO, Hamass, Hezbullah, ISIS, Al Qada, Taliban, Boko Haram, Al Nusra, NOI are fascist organizations.

          • DANIEL!! I may have been inaccurate over your name, but not about the fact that you actually don’t have a list of EDL members. Therefore your premise that the EDL have many Jewish members is nought but an assertion.
            Equally you make further assertions regarding neoZionism (sic). The Zionist movement worked to establish a Jewish homeland, ergo it is Fascist. By such reasoning the SNP are Fascist, Sinn Fein likewise, the Zimbabweans too along with most of Africa. The word Fascist is bandied about far too frequently as a form of insult, and it is rarely supported by anything more than antipathy.

              • If by that you mean that the neoZionist has further ambitions than the original Zionist then that is a convenient and simplistic definition with which to continue the attacking the legitimacy of the State of Israel. If an Israeli, given the record of factions in the Middle East, doesn’t want to see another infiltrated state on its borders replicating all that is evident in Syria, Iraq, Libya, Lebanon and Yemen – then I do not accept that such a person can be criticized for being ultra nationalistic. NeoZionist is used to pejoratively describe those who want security for their nation when all around them is turning into an Islamofascist hell. Islamofascism, or whatever other term you might wish to use, has never been the product of Zionism. Zionism, and now neoZionism, are convenient scapegoats. It may well be that “neoZionism” will fail to produce security, but that doesn’t render it invalid given the current outlook in the region. As a matter of interest what term would you use for the Palestinian who persists after 68 years in demanding the total destruction of Israel?…..And there’s nothing “neo” about that.

                • Your first sentence is an extrapolation that has nothing to do with questioning the legitimacy of Israel. NeoZionism is fascistic in that it supplants the legitimate claims for the establishment of a homeland with the aspiration for Eretz Yisrael. The notion that illegal territorial expansionism which the latter implies can be in some way legitimately couched in the language of preemption is intellectually disingenuous. You then go on to use ideologically loaded language with your use of the term “Islamofascism”, which as I stated previously is an oxymoron.

                  • You seem to have swallowed a dictionary. What you have come up with is a series of fancy words amounting to absolute gobbledegook. Your post is the quintessence of pomposity. That said I shall agree that there are extremist quasi-fascist views amongst certain Israelis. That is the result of being threatened with extermination for 68 years. Do you recall the phrase “never again”? Well that’s what it means when a second extermination is promised. Nonetheless many of those neoZionists descend directly from refugees from Arab countries who sought Israel as a refuge having lost everything they ever owned before they had to take flight. Such non-European immigrants and their issue amount to virtually half of Israel today.

                    • It’s not gobbledegook at all Michael. Of course pogroms against Jews have long pre-dated WW2, and I therefore take your point, at least to a degree. The question is,when do legitimate concerns cross over into self-delusion and paranoia? There is one group of people who continue to be ethnically cleansed, and it’s not the Jews, but the Palestinian’s. But I’m not surprised you overlooked that fact.

                    • Daniel, if the Israelis are ethnic cleansers then they must be particularly ineffective at such a practice. Nearly 20% of the Israeli population is Arab (Palestinian if you prefer). Israel’s third city Haifa is the most integrated city in the Middle East with a total population of the conurbation of nearly 600,000. All over Israel there are those who tell you they are Palestinians, including the Bedouin who join the IDF willingly and serve very effectively. The Druze are equally integrated. As for ethnic cleansing all the Jewish residents of (East) Jerusalem and Hebron were expelled in 1948 so that no Jew could remain in the territories taken over and annexed (contrary to International Law!) by Jordan in 1951. The Palestinian population within the borders of the province of Palestine pre 1948 has now risen from under 2 million to over 6 million having been, according to you, ethnically cleansed. Why not throw in the word ‘genocide’ for good measure – others do? In Israel there are 300,000 Christian Arabs making the country the only place in the Middle East where Christians can feel secure.

                      You state “There is one group of people who continue to be ethnically cleansed, and it’s not the Jews, but the Palestinian’s. ” You are as wrong as your misplaced grocers’ apostrophe. However, when it comes to ethnic cleansing there’s plenty of that going on, but anywhere except Israel. You and people like you studiously ignore such things, but at the same time take mighty offence when someone suggests that you might be a Judaeophobe. Come on Daniel – respond to me with Deir Yassin, that’s the usual pattern.

                    • ….and oh yes Daniel, I nearly forgot, have you located that EDL membership list yet showing those large numbers of Jews who are members?

                  • “illegal territorial expansionism” – blah, blah, blah. Yet another ignorant prick who has no clue what the term ‘illegal’ actually means, and simply drops it into his absurd rants as a convenient term of abuse.

                  • ” The notion that illegal territorial expansionism” – you still have no clue what the word ‘illegal’ means in general, nor what the legal situation is in the ME. Go back and study San Remo, LoN, UNSC resolutions etc etc. But I doubt that you’ll learn anything, because you are a pompous ignorant prick who simply uses the word ‘illegal’ to wank over.

                    • You can lead the mule to the water but you cannot make him drink .

                      With Margrain , we have tried , genuinely tried to give him facts, dates ,books, articles, stats, internet sources , basic history lessons , basic English grammar lessons. vowels , whatever . Long and short .
                      He don’t want to experiment with truth . He doesn’t know where the journey will take him. OR he is shit thick and lives in a bucket .

                      But well done for trying .

                    • No he is just a good example of authoritarian faith based education – faith as psychological feature of the mind.

          • Why the neo? Neo -liberals; neo- conservatives; neo Zionists? What is supposed to be the common factor apart from a bit of woolly colour to disguise lack of articulate clear and simple analytical ability?

            • Michael, your post demonstrates that you haven’t a clue what ethnic cleansing is or entails.

              • and there was me thinking Margrain didn’t know what ‘ethnic cleansing’ was .
                I smirked when you said to check out US State Dept . Not usually Margrain’s first port of call to authenticate what he says .
                Anyway, Margrain, the expression came from a report of Kurt Waldheim in 1943 Croatia when he was a colonel in the SS reporting on the efficiency of rounding up Serbs . You probably never heard of Jasenovac . That’s what it entailed .

                You just invent as you go along . Add a few catch phrases or words . yadda yadda yadda

                  • Oh hells bells , You trying to establish common definitions . You seen the pictures from Jasenovac. You seen pictures of Gaza . They are clearly not the same .

                    Why do you insult and demean the mass murder of Serbs and other victims by Ustashe in WW2 for your point scoring ? Its basically immoral lying .

                    Instead of throwing round poor insults . Do us a favour and look at pictures of Jasenovac and then check out google searches on luxury hotels and millionaires in Gaza

            • Michael, neoZionism is a fascist ideology and the EDL are a fascist organisation. Syllogism, old chap.

              • Danny, Socialism, Islamofascism are fascist ideologies and Labour is a fascist organization. Syllogism, ol’ wanker..

              • Well now, I appear to have reduced you to one liners “old chap”. All you can do is repeat assertions which, in your case, amount to nothing much more than slogans. Go on – educate me over ethnic cleansing – I’m always willing to learn. Obviously I am not going to get that evidence from you about the EDL membership list with all those Jews in it, so I suppose we’d better move on as it were. Maybe you get your slogans down at West Ham United – pity tomorrow’s match is postponed. Perhaps you could use the time usefully to do some proper research.

                • Totally fail to see what the prefix neo – has to do with ethnic cleansing in itself a very new epithet from the collapse of Yugoslavia.. Neo- fascist was being used in Europe in the 50’s when apart from decolonisation – and Algerian widespread killings at independence there was not much warfare against the population.
                  If you want to apply neo- as an ethnic cleansing term in Palestine do notice that it is the Arabs who wish to get rid of the Jewish population – as much is in the Covenants of the PLO and Hamas and Hizbollah.who are all nasty medievals that believe in the religious control of society and not in democratic votes.

                  • Frank, your comment came up as being a reply to me. I think it is intended for Daniel Margrain given its text. I have no argument with you whatsoever. Of course this whole discussion is getting rather tattered by now and we are all a bit punch drunk.

                  • I also totally fail to see prefix Neo .
                    But I think that for Margrain adding Neo Zionist is supposed to be a further term of insult . So he uses it Neo-unnecessarily .
                    Reverse logic when he regards the emphasis of the pastiche as more authentic than the original . There are still enough Jews and Zionists wandering around to make ‘neoZionist’ not necessary.Margrain would not walk into a restaurant and order a Neo Steak and Neo chips . He would order a Steak and chips .

                    Another thing that I don’t get is all this “ideological bedfellows” guff . As I said before- shagging/no shagging. Cannot deal with rumour or supposition on shagging matters .
                    However in Margrain’s flippant usage of such concepts shows he doesn’t really understand what he means when he says ideological bedfellows . He seems to be adapting the logic of Milton Friedman [ oooh dear matey , an arch capitalist . sorry , neo capitalist ] by defining political movements not on the criteria of left/centre/right but on the criteria of state intervention/non state intervention policies . So, is Margrain a free marketeer posing as a right on commie ? And does that make Margrain a Neo capitalist?

                • I don’t want to hold your hand, Michael. I’m sure you are more than capable of doing your own research, But as a pointer, I’ll just say, “the United States State Department definition”. Have a look and get back to me.

                  • I have only just picked up your challenge to me Daniel. For some reason I wasn’t alerted to it earlier. Certainly the US State Department’s papers on ethnic cleansing make interesting reading Of course point one it is only an opinion, and point two it seems to concentrate on 1948. In 1948 the nascent nation of Israel was attacked by at least 5 Arab armies who made no secret of the fact that their intention was not only to ethnically cleanse the Jews out of Palestine but to go much further than that. In the ensuing war it is true that many Arabs fled territories that had become a battlefield, and much of that was in response to their own side’s scaremongering. Those, however, who remained were able to become Israeli citizens and since that time their numbers have grown to 1.8 million.

                    To concede a point, however, I would agree that the Israelis have been guilty on two occasions since of ethnic cleansing. The first time was in 1982 when they ordered 18 Jewish settlements of in Sinai to be dismantled as part of the peace accord with Egypt. The second occasion was in 2005 when they ordered 21 Jewish settlements in Gaza to be evacuated in the hope that ethnically cleansing Gaza of Jews might have some positive peacemaking results. They were wrong about that. Interestingly one of the Jewish settlers in Gaza ended up marring my step-niece. He and his family had to live for quite a time in a caravan having been evicted (cleansed) by the Sharon government from the home they had occupied for many years.

                    • None of the 5 attacking Arab armies was one of an existing “palestine”.- because there WAS NO PALESWINE.

                    • Was it not during one of the Parnell debates that somebody shouted rhetorically, “After all what is a nation?” and was answered with “A nation is what a man will die for!” What is definite is that when Herzl became active Parnell was still last year’s news and he admits he set out to be, “The Parnell of the Jews,” It is quite disgraceful that so many Irish are anti-Israel.

                    • No offence Michael, but your post is straight out of the Hasbara Handbook so devoid of historical reality is it. That’s a pity because (and I mean this sincerely) you at least have the ability to engage without the need to fling the customary insults one tends to find on this partisan site. I’m sure you are a nice person and somebody that I would like to have a beer over to discuss these issues in a civilized environment. I honestly think you genuinely believe the narrative that has almost certainly been fed to you from your youth. I don’t blame you for that by the way.

                  • Daniel, I am a member of a family that has varying views on the subject in question. I am educated and balanced enough to know when I am reading propaganda from either side in this debate. I do not possess any sort of ‘Hasbara handbook’, and I always attempt to research facts independently before commenting. Because you disagree with me doesn’t in any way mean that I am brainwashed any more than you are. You take an ideologically different position from me. I understand that and that is why I prefer to debate the matter in a civilised and mature way. After a certain length of time arguments of this sort become circular and recurring. Time perhaps for that pint down the pub, though Barnet is a long way for me to travel for it.

                    • DM forgets that Papal infallibility is only ex cathedra, and a doctrine only crystallised under Pio Nono 130 (?) years ago.
                      DM should try at least the second opinions on his side and remember the Kissinger comment on Stalin – or was it Herod – the man is paranoid but he does have real enemies.
                      Similarly DM might not like JP, CS and my arguments and friends but the key to expert interrogation in contrast to bullying is to at least check that when somebody tells you elephants are grey – elephants might turn out to be grey.

              • Your syllogism is OK but the facts on which it is based are not true. Zionism is not and was not fascist – mind you instead of blind assertions try some evidence and logic of which you are crassly short.

        • Edward I am British and a Socialist but I am not an ideological bedfellow , or bedfellow of any kind of the BNP.
          Not in the past, not in the present, and not in the future.

          Pigeonholes and simplistic slogans are for the simple minded.

          • Shitler was a Socialist. A National Socialist. Is “Labour” Socialist? jeremy corbyn a Socialist?

            Stalin was a Socialist. A Soviet Socialist.

              • Does that mean you are a green Irish Catholic nationalist of the sort that opposed: The Enlightenment, Darwin and democracy, supported Hit and Muss; and believes the jarvey was a leprechaun?

                OK jokes apart, I have scrolled the thread and there are a couple of real points of fact missing.

                First in the classical Graeco – Roman period till the Jewish Bar Kochba revolt against Hadrian the geography of a lot of what is now The State of Israel and the ex-British Mandate of Palestine was known as JUDEA which is why Jews are known as Jews otherwise Judeans, even though we call ourselves Israel or Children of Israel. This is why all Israeli government letterheads are carefully “Medinat Israel” / State of Israel because in Hebrew and Jewish contexts Israel means the entire House of Israel both the Diaspora and the Yishuv – those actually living in the Land of Israel – which is the Biblical geographical name even in translation.

                Second for the last millennium the area has been known as the Holy Land, or to the Crusaders Outre Mer (Beyond the Sea)

                Three as those who have read up on the origins of Sykes Picot know; the Turks divided the geography between the Vilayets of Damascus and Beirut but by the 1870’s numbers of Western tourists and consuls led them to create an independent Sanjak of Jerusalem that reported directly to Constantinople, as then the Ottoman capital.

                About the turn of the century (Rev?) George Adams – no relative – wrote a comprehensive book on the geography of the area – both banks of the Jordan and titled a Geography of Palestine which was then, as Metternich said of Italy, “a geographical expression.” It was however a title without innuendos of political sovereignty nor exact political borders. This was the point of the Balfour Declaration’s slippery wording as it left open the negotiation of an exact frontier for later and the British were to use that to push the border of French Syria further North on the West of the Jordan Valley in exchange for the Golan Heights to French Syria.

                The new Mandate – borders with Syria and Lebanon agreed by the 1923 Convention – was titled Palestine in imitation of the Romans which the British liked to do but also probably to try and avoid – unsuccessfully – trouble with the Arabs and their own Christian lobby. It is worth noting that the local Arabs persisted in calling themselves Arabs (of the Land) and till after Israel was founded and Nasser took power the memoirs show that they despised the new arrangements as “chalk lines in sand.” The fact that the new frontiers were enforced by lorried police squads with radios and machineguns escaped the urban based political classes of lawyers and landowners. In fact it was the Saudis who profited most by the new para-military policing technology.

                A word on the Philistines or original Palestinians who are characters in the Biblical books of Judges and Kings but then disappear from the historical record for good well before the fall of the first Temple in the 6th century BCE. Insofar as archaeologists have picked up on them thy were part of a large wave of proto – Greeks who descended on the islands of the Med while the Dorian Greeks remained in Greece as ancestors of the modern Greeks. One of their tribes the Sheredanu made it to Sardinia still named after them and some made it to the southern coast of the Holy Land in what could be in modern terms a slightly fatter and longer Gaza Strip. As this was Egyptian sphere of influence they did adapt inclusive their pottery coffins with anthropomorphic mouldings. Matthew Arnold rather did them down as materialists but their pots and décor is distinctively flowing and more Celtic than the rectangulars of Greece and Rome – no doubt a moral there. They were resuscitated by Hadrian’s government after the savagery of the Bar Kochba Revolt as an intended PR exercise in pretending there had never been a Jewish State by renaming the geography after the Jewish enemy of their own Bible. The Romans had intelligence officers but as with all these types some go native. Centurion Aquila – Onkelos the Convert – wrote the Aramaic translation of the Bible still in use. The interesting spin off from the linguistics is not just that Romans and British cannot pronounce the Greek aspirate PH so we get Palestina/e but that the word is originally from the Hebrew or even generally Semitic root ” leFaLeSH ” to intrude, trepass and generally play gooseberry; an appellation explained by their efforts to strike inland from the coast – like Sassenachs.

                Now for the present generation of “Palestinians” whose leaders were born at the turn of the 20’s and 30’s and grew up not only in the shadow of the British suppression of the Arab revolt and civil war of 1936 – 38 but also against the Arab resentment at not achieving a united Arab kingdom – which was partly down to Abdul Azziz ibn Azziz and Hussain of Mecca misplaying their cards. These people when presented with a new champion of Arab unity as if it would solve their problems followed Nasser but not in the name of a Palestine state – initially. Jordan and other Arab states and US and other toadying foreign offices very carefully referred only to “Arab refuges” – not Palestinians – even if they wanted them back in Israel to explode it. In 1964 with Nasser’s money and backing on the precedents of Algeria the PLO was founded in a Jerusalem convenient hotel with the intention of being a Nasserist subversion of Jordan and so remained under Shuqueiri pretending to be a socialist despite some adventures on the Lebanese frontier. The proof is in the eventual Black September rebellion against Hussein’s Jordan with Syrian backing. Meanwhile Syria entered the same game with Fatah which is a word meaning opening but is used by Moslems analogously to Christians speaking of the conversion of a country. It was only after the resounding and unexpected Israeli victory of 1967 that the Arabs did some serious rethinking. For one out went Shuqueri and in came Arafart who united Fatah and PLO but used the PLO banner for being more fashionable after a couple of decades of imperial retreat. Second somebody twigged that simply saying Israel must be destroyed – like Carthage had not got them anywhere politically but if they were to campaign in the name of liberation from an occupier it would get more support and suckers. The fact that they could have got Israel out of the area in contention by making a mutually recognisant peace escaped them either intentionally out of vanity or contempt for non Moslems in general and Jews in particular.

                Arafat’s act of bamboozlement and self aggrandisement has been a brilliant political performance but it has not created peace but embittered the situation. As the Sykes Picot Middle East collapses in Arab fires and civil wars even more than foreign interference, it also drags with it any concept of a Palestine Arab state as a successor to the Ottomans. If the jihadi rage continues to batter the area the be quite sure that after Israel’s history she will defend herself come another 1948.

                To sign off on Finkelstein and his anticlerical interpretations of Biblical history and original Biblical epoch Israelite settlement. He actually makes it even more of a miracle and proof of the value of education in a good idea that the Jewish people arrived survived and still thrives.

        • That’ll explain why British socialists fought against the fascist Blackshirts at Cable Street….Duh!

        • This is daft. British socialists along with their Jewish brothers have a long history of fighting fascist thugs.

          • What’s daft is that british socialists, see Labooor and jeremy corbyn, side with Islamofascists.

            What’s progressive about siding with islamofascists?

      • I just don’t understand this ideological bedfellows or not . They either shagging each other or not ?. simples

        I dnt get why your analysis of political establishments seems limited to whitey West European 20th century . Sounds a bit racist to me .

        this scrape away façade thingy was also confusing . Why you talking architecture ? When you should be asking yourself whether the Thundercats are Zionists for wanting to go home .

        and also I thought last year we resolved this neo bollox . You don’t drink neo orange juice . You drink orange juice .

        Please can you make it even more simpler for me . Thank you

  14. We seem to have left the main subject well behind and nobody has offered, even one reason for the occupation of Palestine. I would even accept daft ones such as “we were promised the land by god/Walmart/ tooth fairy. But as we are on the subject, I’m reading Poisoned Spring and would highly recommend it. There are sections about water as a weapon and the Jordan river gets a mention;-
    http://www.abebooks.co.uk/Poisoned-Spring-Water-Privatisation-Hardback-Kartika/11220847075/bd

    • “..nobody has offered, even one reason for the occupation of Palestine.”
      Has it crossed your mind Robert that the reason for that is you are the only one who refuses to accept the reality of the situation.
      The reality being after centuries of occupation, by Romans, by Crusaders, by Muslims, Israel was finally liberated and re-established 70 years ago as the home of the Jewish people.

      I understand it is hard for you to analyse the situation, (it was Regis Debray back in the 60s who said “When has a Trotskyite ever made a concrete analysis of a concrete situation”) but the only parts of ‘Palestine’ occupied today are Gaza occupied by the Fascist thugs of Hamas and parts of the West Bank occupied by the kleptocrats of Fatah.

      Instead of making sneering remarks about religions you might better spend your time examining the Trotskyite Voodoo (described by Lenin as infantile) that you support. There is not a country on this planet where it has, nor will it, ever been supported by the people.

      • I hate to disappoint you but I’m not a Trotskyite. In fact I’m not a member of any political party. I do find all religions boring and of little use to humanity, in fact I think there’s a strong case to made for banning them all. Then maybe we can get on with using our brains.
        The word “thug” could just as easily apply to the occupiers and would probably be more accurate, as the word seems to have originated from religious zealots.
        Our own Brendan Behan once remarked that the terrorists “were the ones with the small bombs”.

        • Atheism is the Opium of Socialists.

          I wish you would go to Gaza and strut around telling the boys of Hamass of your views on Religion, especially Islam.

          • I’m not an atheist – I just don’t believe – there’s a difference. Why the hell would I strut around anywhere expounding my religious (or lack of) views? That is usually the role of a zealot.

            • You just missed the inconvenient truth that you’re strutting around here, displaying your ignorance, zealot.

              Happy Eternal Nakba!

            • > Why the hell would I strut around anywhere expounding my religious (or lack of) views? That is usually the role of a zealot.

              That’s exactly what you’re doing here, zealot.

              Happy Eternal Nakba!

              • Comment and civilised debate is what I, obviously mistakenly, thought I was involved in.

                  • It would be difficult for me to enjoy an eternal nakba because I don’t believe in eternity, as far as humans experiencing it is concerned.

                    • I totally agree, “that time will march on without me” but that won’t bother me. The human species will probably disappear off the face of the planet and that won’t be any great loss either. We are just one species but we have managed to wipe out about half of the other species that we share the mother-ship with. Then our dear little planet dies anyway. Unfortunately(fortunately), there’s no Plan B for the human race. All we can do in the meantime is, as little harm as possible and show kindness to all other beings.

                    • Mullah Navan said “time will march on without me”

                      AND the Nakba for Islamofascists, Islamoimperialists and Fascist Eurotrash will continue without you.

        • “I’m not a Trotskyite”
          Of course not Robert.

          It is just a coincidence that you appear on a site about Eamonn McCann.
          It is just a coincidence that you push a book written by a couple of Trots in the European Parliament.
          It is just a coincidence that the book you push is published by Pluto Press, publishers set up by the Socialist Workers Party in London to publish Trot pamphlets and books.
          And it is a complete coincidence that you spout the same slogans, and belong to organisations such as LASC as other Trots.

          If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, flies like a duck………

          • I also read books and papers written by right – wing people but that doesn’t make me a capitalist. I also think that Trots can write just as well as the next person. LASC would be most amused to be described as such. I’m not sure that there’s even a Trot member in that organisation. My experience of them was as a middle-of-the-road human rights type of group.
            If I remember correctly Reagan used that phrase about the duck to legitimise the slaughter of tens of thousands of innocent people in Latin America.
            Look – I know the answer to my own question “why the occupiers do what they do”. It’s simple and it’s the same reason why a dog licks it’s balls – and that is because it can. The genocide will go on in Palestine and will be supported by the Western powers. Anything I say or write will not stop it. In my humble opinion the occupiers will soon own all the land but, just like the US red indian and the Australian aborigine, a few native people will remain like refugees in their own lands.
            The thing that will probably stop the gallop, is climate change, particularly water resources. The planet operates it’s own self-regulating system and with the continuing influx of people into the occupied territories, it’s hard to see the land being able to cope. Then everybody suffers.
            By the way, did you never ever hear the term “free thinker”. I also cannot find any slogans “spouted” by me but I can find many from other correspondents.

            • Robert I have heard the term “free thinker” before, but I do not believe it applies to someone who wants to ban all religions because they regard them as Voodoo. Or is it that your definition of “free thinker” is that someone is free to think whatever they like as long as it agrees with you think?

                • Saying “there’s a strong case for banning all religions” doesn’t mean that I want that to happen. I’m hoping that, as the human brain acquires more knowledge this will naturally happen. Goodness knows, I come from an island of “god-botherers” but it seems to be on the decrease nowadays.
                  By free thinker, I would mean a person that can see all sides of an argument and then make a judgment based on the evidence.
                  The interesting thing for me, which is also a sad one, is the amount of venom, insults and name-calling that my humble opinion attracted.
                  By the way, I see that the latest figure for child deaths in Palestine, as a direct result of OPT action, stands at over 2000 since the year 2000.

                  • Pal-e-SWINIANS using children as human shields, using children as soldiers, using children as sex objects, as props, dehumanizes children.

                    ISIS and Assad have killed 250,000+ people in their Civil War. How many of those have been children? Do their lives count?

                    • Under the UN Declaration of the Rights of the Child parties are not to mobilise u-15’s onto a battlefield ie into military ops. Besides it is forbidden to use people as human shields in the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court that lists from all the Geneva conventions all the recognised war crimes.
                      Given the way Cousin Ishmael is only interested in International Law when it suits and otherwise overrides it or makes it up for PR, nobody should be too overcome about Arabs as they themselves are not – as clearly seen in Syria, Iraq, Yemen and several other intra- Arab conflicts which since 1948 have killed well over 2 million Arabs or other Moslems killed by Arabs.

                    • The “prophet” and his imperialist warring descendants are the inventors of wars in the Middle East, Far East, Africa. That was invented 1,400 years ago.

                      WW2 was the invention of Imperialist Socialists.

                  • Robert your logic is confusing.
                    At first you claim”…doesn’t mean that I want that to happen.” Then you follow that up with “I’m hoping that, as the human brain acquires more knowledge this will naturally happen.”

                    So on the one hand it doesn’t mean that you want it to happen, but on the other hand you are hoping that it does happen.

                    • I don’t want it to be “banned” but I do want it to melt away as human intelligence increases. Mind you, I’m not sure that the latter is a given.

                    • Are you distinguishing between finding the officers of traditional religion as obnoxious as ever for past and present abuse of office and promoting unlikely fairy stories; or are you willing to grade the current lot; or are you prepared to rigorously enquire into what religion does, or is supposed to do, and manage some reforms?

                  • Pharisee!!! Child in law means u-18’s and child in journalism means fluffy pre-adolescents. Your “friends” – tell me who you are – cynically send gullible youngsters to tease armed police and soldiery not even as in class but with stone throwing. May their blood be upon your head.

            • “The genocide will go on in Palestine” – you are just another ignorant prick who has no clue what the word ‘genocide’ means and who imagines there is such a place as ‘Palestine’.

      • Israel’s legitimacy ends at the Armistice line, unless you are under the impression that there is a real estate agent in the heavens called God.

        • For what reason does Israeli legitimacy end at the “Armistice” line which by definition is not a mutual treaty but a cease fire. On the same implicit reason of your stated claim Israeli legitimacy can be said to extend to the cease fire lines of 1967.

          • The fascists need to retreat back to the green line in accordance with international law.

            • The fascists need to retreat back to the East bank of the Jordan river in accordance with International law.

            • A very ignorant remark; besides misusing “fascist” is argument by insult instead of reason and evidence. By precedent in France in 1815, and Germany post 1945 or the Egyptian Sinai situation 1967 – 77 and many others in history. The victorious occupier may remain till the pace makes post war arrangements. The occupation is the hostage to terminate the conflict.
              Proof is the US/UK pressure on Israel to leave Sinai in 1949; and 1957 just left the Egyptians laughing. They only realised they could get Sinai for a pace treaty after Israel staying there in 67 -77.
              In the case of the Palestine Arabs in the ex-Jordanian West Bank the silly big heads have simply refused every offer of a compromise; have refused to comprehend that if they did not deal with the partitionist Labour coalition they would eventually have to deal with the right wing NON- partitionist coalition and in their delays have given the Israelis the opportunities to extend.
              Incidentally as already mentioned, in the week after the ’67 war Israel offered to return to the Green Line for a peace treaty ending the conflict. The sulking Arab parties did not even reply except to issue the Khartoum refusals to make peace in Aug 67, so by that September’s Jewish New Year the edges were already being nibbled.
              All I can say about this thread is that many of the participants have not done any corroborative homework but sucked up to Arab policy lines – OK – without checking real facts – poor, very poor and precious little empathy with oppos – fatal.

          • Sorry, Frank, but I’m not going to fall into your neoZionist trap so as to justify and legitimize the neoZionist wet dream of grabbing more and more land predicated on historical lies.

            • Danny, You just fell into the neoIslamofascist trap of being a Useful Infidel for Islamofascism.

              Happy Eternal Nakba!

            • The Margrain reply is like De Gaulle’s, “I’ve understood you.” The pieds noirs failed to notice that his having understood them did not necessarily mean he agreed with them. Your projection of insults on my hypothesis of your ignorance just proves my point. You are an unmitigated enemy and the lesson of the century is that when somebody says they want to kill you, believe them.

      • The reason for the “occupation of Palestine” and where do the borders between Palestine and Israel lie? is quite simply that in Nov 47 to June 49 the Arabs of the country and the Arab states rather big headedly rejected the UN 181 recommendation of two states for two peoples and decided to brush the Jewish Community or “Yishuv” into the sea. When the Arabs lost they ended with 20% of the territory instead of 45%.
        Further and herein is the moral of the tale; people judge others by themselves and the ordinary Arabs for the most part having been advised to be nasty to their Jewish neighbours thought their Jewish neighbours would be nasty to them – so many fled for safety back to the hill villages they had come from in the “West Bank” or Lebanon (qv Lela Khaled’s memoirs) or to return to Egypt – so trapped eventually in Gaza. Admittedly in some places they were deported and villages destroyed but having once trained as a subaltern, troops are allowed to put an area into a state of defence – demolitions and fields of fire.
        Then in 1968 at the instigation of the USSR the Nasserists of Syria and Egypt tried again and as the World stood back licking their chops the Israelis gave the Egyptians and Syrians a knock out blow and Jordan believing Nasser’s PR stepped in the cow pat and was taken to the cleaners – deservedly after bombarding Jerusalem and Tel Aviv. Believe me as a witness; I am 74.

          • History? The Jews were in the Land of Israel BEFORE Imperialist Mooohammed came on the scene.

            Happy Eternal Nakba!

          • Joan Peters happens to be correct because I have read the British archives too.
            More pertinently try reading Christopher Sykes “Cross Roads to Israel – Palestine from Balfour to Bevin” or Connor Cruise O’Brien’s “The Siege”

                  • Go to the Rome Statute of the ICC and check the consolidated list of war crimes from the four Geneva Conventions and their protocols [addenda]. Included is “human shields” so the next time The Grauniad crows over Arab misuse of their own people ask yourself if you would really like to live in an Arab state?
                    Then cut Israel some slack that it fights to stay independent (a) from the medieval cutthroat incompetents that are Arab kleptomaniac apologies for government; (b) from the Western hypocrites who refused to take in the refugee Jews in the name of tight fisted low brow economics in the 30’s but drew great military and other benefits from the few they had accepted.
                    Incidentally what does DM hope to gain from patronising the Palestine Arabs given they can not in a manne rof speaking wipe their backsides politically? Can DM be crystal clear as to what EIRE / The Irish Republic has gained materially or otherwise from independence? In which case stop carping at Israel to fade away as a minority religion! rather than assert its Jewish independence!

              • No Danny boy, Islam as “The Religion of Peace” has been roundly debunked by events since 9/11/01.

              • The radical Irish epithet is acting up to stereotype of simply being anti-received opinion – without necessarily checking that received opinion is usually so for a reasonable and rational reason. Nowt wrong with being Irish in any interpretation, but if you want to be respected as a scholar do some reading and visiting. A lot of the waffle about WWI is armchair. Go to Paschenhdael lie down on the ground and put up your fists before your nose as if holding a light machine gun and look at the field “over a gun sight” and you will understand the lack of alternatives.

                Joan Peters was deliberately rubbished by those with an interest in not being tarred with membership of an extra territorial nation so as to pose as the protagonist of the Internationale. When you read the actual archive documents about Arab migration to the burgeoning economy of the Mandate – because the Peel Report estimated Zionist investment at £100 million (ie £5 billion now) . Joan Peters makes sense or at least plausibility. My late Father was in 20’s Palestine and because of one of his anecdotes about Arab infiltration and summary deportation I pursued the archive clues. In each World War the British imported 20 000 Egyptian labourers for military construction and camp fatigues. Of Arabs, twice as many fiancees/brides than men in general entered the Mandate. Of Arabs who left a quarter or more had not been born within Palestine or Tran-Jordan ie immigrants. Similar figures turned up in June 1967 when at the end of June 67 the IDF after due notice had a one day total curfew and census of the 1967 territories. There were 960 000 Arabs of whom 40 000 had been born outside Palestine and Jordan. So much for the defamation of ethnic cleansing now that there at least 3 million in the area.

                My extended family lived in ten states at some time or other and I visited them all and drew the conclusion that the witness evidence holds priority. However because one was a contemporary one was not necessarily a witness even if a good witness to the hearsay of the time. What is totally surprising about the tone of the Palestinista anti-Zionist lobby is that the WW I and II were fought for thee rights of small nations and all nations eventually yet they can not abide Jews having a nationstate and support a bunch of medieval clericalists who would revert the World to pre -Enlightenment times. The Palestine Arabs had six opportunities to compromise and draw the chestnut of state to themselves and did not. Somebody should remind them that it was precisely because the Moslem World dodged the Reformation and the Revolution: agricultural, political and industrial, that it stagnated and has never quite caught up.

                • Excellent post Frank. I’ve been telling him much the same but probably to little avail.

    • Jordan is “palestine” – that’s on the East bank of the Jordan River – And “palestinians” have a beautiful Queen Rania- a beautiful alternative to Arafat’s beard “wife” Suha, who also can’t stand “her people” and preferred to live the high life in Paris and Tunisia on her $22 million pension.

      Kind Abdullah may have to treat his traitorous “palestinian” fifth column as his father King Hussein did.

    • The reason for the situation in former British Palestine is very easy to find. Go to the nearest library with a collection of newspapers and ask for the 1947 volume – which will be small because of paper rationing and as you turn the pages for headlines about Palestine you find that the Arab Government burkes of the time executed their threat to fight if the UN recommended partition. Jews might be a pushover as disarmed civilian minorities but in 1948 on their own BOUGHT land they were going to defend themselves. Just remember in all the pontificating and sucking up to Arab complaints and anger, that in the late 40’s Jews everywhere were furious after the revelation of the Holocaust in 1945; so after a century of protest and being civil they had learnt the lesson that when clerical and landlord thugs say they intend to kill you – believe them.

      • The point is that the Sand Nazis have a history and support that links them to Right and Left Wing Eurotrash Socialist Nazis.

          • Are you still here ? I thought it was an echo .

            Just heard that Hamas was looking for some more human shields. Margrain, this could be your opportunity to volunteer to do something practical .

              • “feel at home ”
                Its good to see you understand one aspect of Zionism . The desire to feel safe at home in one’s homeland .

                Margrain , There probably wouldn’t even be a State of Israel or an IDF if it wasn’t for people like you . You must accept responsibility for Israel’s existence . This makes you not a Zionist or a neo Zionist but a precursor nano- Zionist . So I thank you for supporting and justifying the need for the State of Israel , even if your myopia cannot see it .

                • Actually it is the Arabs and their friends the Grauniad columnists who are proud of mis-using human shields – which is illegal in international law as it is listed in the Rome Statute of the ICC ! Unfortunately Arabs are imperialists in the guise of missionary work for a bone headed and intolerant variant of Islam. The proof is in the x number of incendiary devices the Arabs themselves have released in the Arab World.

                  • The IOF have routinely used human shields. That’s a fact and any attempt to deflect away from that is akin to willful self-delusion. And before you ask, yes, I accept that the Palestinian’s have used human shields.

                    • Islamofascist Hamass routinely uses men, women and CHILDREN as human shields and props.

                      ISIS, fascist Iran, Al Qada, Boko Haram, Muslim Brotherhood and the Taliban routinely execute girls, gays and other minorities.

                    • Just specify a couple of incidents when the IDF have used human shields? I have seen photos of the British putting Arabs on train “pilot wagons” to deter mines and roadside shots, but I have no recollection of the IDF using Arabs never mind Israeli Jews as human shields. For one Arab gunners would not care a damn – because Arabs do not care a damn about any rules even Sharia – except as when the hypocritical pomposity is pleading against extradition to France, “because he would not have a fair trial !” As if there was anything of a fair trial in his attacks on the Paris dance hall and St Denis Stadium.

                • Curd, the Jews have their homeland, it’s called Israel. As a Jew you are welcome to settle there. Proportionately you would be far safer living their compared to the Palestinian’s in Palestine whose land you continue to steal. It’s really quite simple. No occupation=no resistance to occupation. Go back to the armistice line and you will be completely safe. You are putting words in my mouth by inferring that I don’t support the state of Israel. I have never, and will never, dispute the right of Jews to settle in peace in their homeland. But what I can’t accept is the fascist concept pertaining to Eretz Yisrael.

                  • so lets be clear here – you are not against Zionism per se, just the few naughty Jews who don’t accept your wisdom .

                    Your definition of Israel is the green line . My definition of Israel is every bit of land that was robbed and pillaged from the Jews should be returned
                    On your paradigm , which is way out wacky – you would require Israel to be a multi ethnic society [ which it is already ] . And Palestinian areas to be judenfrei . No Jews allowed to live anywhere else except dictated by you . That sounds more fascist than whatever you think eretz Israel is .

                    Simples – its not your acceptance Jews require . You know nothing. You are not in any position to make assurances that Jews/Israelis will be safe .
                    “Go back to the armistice line and you will be completely safe”= what utter faux- naivety. Perhaps the middle east is a dash more complex than that .?

                    • I was very clear. Comprehension is clearly not your forte. I said I’m against illegal Israeli expansionism as part of the neoZionist aspiration for Eretz Yisrael. NeoZionism is no different in principle to any other form of fascism including Hitler fascism. You have it back to front. No land was robbed from Israel, rather it’s Israel who is doing the thieving and international law is very clear on this matter Either you have been brainwashed at Hebrew school or you are a Hasbara propagandist.

                    • Do get some facts right. The Arabs rejected the Peel Report and the Yishuv – Jewish Community of the Mandate – played clever and sat back to let the Arabs kick the dog pat which being politically arrogant they did – and repeated the error in 1947 over UN 181. Israel was not “granted” self determination – she fought for it or the Arabs would have massacred every Jew as they are massacring Yazidis and Christians. The self determination called “Israel” has never been “granted” by the people who matter ie her Arab neighbours who still fight the very concept out of a medieval mindset. The proof is Lebanon where there are no Israelis across the 1923 international frontier but the goons in Beirut maintain the state of war out of a perverse self-satisfaction to prove they are on a power trip of sorts which given they are the most failed of Arab states is perhaps consolation for their reality. Meanwhile your precis of Zionist and British politics is jumbled but not outrageously wrong when disentangled in fact except for the total lack of empathy with the ideological context of the time in which imperial carve ups were still legal. The whole point about the WW I and its political spill over is that is the moment when outright direct admin imperialism becomes improper ad it is decided to break up empires in Europe and the break up of empires outside Europe follows after 1945 and is mostly complete by 1960’s. Understandably some difficulties arose in such a confused change of criterion situation, but you seem to think that the end of European imperialism justifies the resurrection of Moslem imperialism – so do not be too surprised when Moslem mobs shortly beat you all into accepting Islam over Holy Ireland. In the circumstances Churchill’s Cairo Conference Mar 21 in the Semiramis Hotel did make a reasonable attempt to sort out the tangled wires of rival departments and the as the British left th Middle East effectively – Palestine 1948 and Egypt 1954 it is time that the Arabs took some responsibility for their own mucking about in the 60 years since.

                      I have actually read Herzl and Weizmann for that matter – and the Peel Report. I do wish you and your ilk would read the covenants of the PLO, Hamas and Hizbollah before pompously accusing Zionists of fascism as if ever there is a fascist outfit around in modern politics it is the Arab covenants desire to kill off all Israel both as Jews in the State of Israel and as Jews in the Diaspora. That of course would excuse these medieval fundamentalists from serious thinking about the modern world as they can blame all problems on an alleged conspiratorial minority. As Spain, Germany and Russia found: getting rid of their Jews did not get rid of their socio economic problems and political incompetences.

                      You seem to have read only one half of the story and are still deluded by the Arab bullfighting cape that if you sort Palestine you sort all the problems and conflicts from “The Ocean to the Gulf” – Pull the other one! You also do not seem to have visited the area and have some odd misconceptions about its size and margins. Most weird you are full of overspill about a tolerant Enlightenment society but wish to refuse a divorce to two peoples in different languages religions and general culture yet you can not deal with a simpler version of the same in the Island of Ireland. Bluntly what is your general education and occupation and have you read beyond PLO pamphlets and those who are embarrassed at their fate?

                  • Migraine, Muslims can’t even get along with Muslims (sunni vs shiite vs wahabi, vs salifi vs sufi) so your expecting Muslims to get along with Infidels is just idiotic.

                    • It’s not stupid at all. Again, no occupation=no resistance to occupation. It’s a rather simple equation to grasp.

                    • Really DM; listen to what Arabs say and write! Arabs do not consider “the occupation ” to end at the Green Line! The Arab World even before 1967 wanted to take up all Israel as then and being 74 I remember as a witness – though the Arabs did practise their expertise in sharp talk by saying they would not talk till Israel withdrew to the UN 181 proposed borders – they themselves had rejected in 1947 so they have no rights to them by their own “decision.” Bluntly since they were offered the Green Line in June 67 post -war and rejected it again I doubt if they have any right to the Green Line other than as a start line for talks about a future frontier.
                      Incidentally if you are still bothered about British 1914 – 1945 imperial interests you are hopelessly out of date – inasmuch as current politics should be about shelving problems to get on with the rest of our lives. When the USA and EU eventually stop shovelling Danegeld down the PA they might agree some common sense and end the conflict.
                      What is your interest in being so wound up about “Palestine” anyway? Except pretending to be politically concerned while dodging facing up to the real problems of Europe and the World?

                    • Migraine, Islamofascists can’t even get along with NON-Zionists, NON-Israelis, NON-Jews, ie Bahais, Buddhists, Christians, Hindus, Zorastrians OR fellow Muslims, so how are terrorist pal-e-swinians supposed to get along with Israelis???

                      Israelis, like all Free people, have the Right to Resist Islamofascism and Eurotrash Fascism.

                    • “No land was robbed from Israel”

                      I am afraid to correct you on this . What’s the reason behind Zionism – To return to the land of our forefathers that was taken from us . More robbing and slavery and murder been done against the children of Israel than any other nationality in the world . Just because Margrain gets out his red crayon and a map does not guarantee peace .

                      How bloody unreasonable and terrible for the Jews to go back to Israel and buy properties outside of the green line ? or think of living outside a green line ?
                      Think again Margrain. What you propose is an abomination. A Judenfrei zone and an Israeli Zone . Hey, its not just Jews who feel the pulse of the Middle East . Christians , Yazidis , Kurds , shia versus Sunni . But a Judenfrei zone is not what you think will lead to peace . Even if that is not your stated desire , it is the logical consequence of what you advocate .

                      The comparison of Fascism is puerile. Its just a word you throw out yadda yadda yadda. Israel is a democracy . Multi ethnic and cultural society . Without doubt , if you wish to look at modern day fascism Hamas would be a better mark for you .

                      For the sake of a more interesting argument , Margrain. Try to not use catch phrases but turn your position on its head and look at results driven peace rather than ideologically impetus peace . The slogan no occupation = no resistance to occupation is not going to achieve peace . It was tested in withdrawal from Gaza. Greenhouses to grow food were smashed up and used as terrorist training grounds and tunnel launch bases .

  15. Message to the normal people out there :

    dialoging and explaining to anti Semites is never going to be an easy journey . First of all , simply put , they hate Jews and Israel as a manifestation of Jews . So you are dealing with that hurdle to cross straight away . This may involve name calling , personal insults , derogatory references . Don’t worry too much about the insults . The Anti Semite hasn’t met you . Its just words that can wash off your back

    Next, its a slow slow process to make them see that they have been talking shite all those years , wasted on hate . You dealing with what’s kept them motivated all those years and trying to deprive them off it . Of course they are going to defend up to the hilt , because if they don’t then what’s the point of years of energy wasted .
    Patience is required

    If you do enter into discourse with a racist anti Semite , that in itself is a good thing . It shows an exchange of views and the anti Semite is prepared to explain himself or at least talk to the unter mensch . Stick with it . Patience is required

    Try not to insult him personally . Sorry , we all fail occasionally because he is racist slime . But its a distraction . he said this , you said that, he said this . You got to be reasonable and logical or illogical in the way you correspond with him . He may re read them messages 5 weeks/years later and that’s when he gets the brainwave that he been a fool for a long time
    Polemics are ok up to a point but in the end you find he is giving you the polemics when he is running out of rational points . Patience is required
    stick to it . specifically and generally . cite examples . each point he makes , do not dismiss . explain that he has got his wires crossed/wrong .

    Do not try to imagine who is on the other end of the internet. The racist slimeball may be a student, shop keeper, unemployed, stockbroker, art collector , French, Belgian, Burmese , anything . All you can do is respond to his points in a way that hopefully makes him embark on a process of independent thought to what he has held dear .
    The reverse also applies . Do not give away personal information .

    Some people you never gonna convince or develop dialogue with . They are just trolling nasty , or they are dedicated to the cause and have the face tattoos and all that . However that doesn’t stop you from trying . The war against anti Semitism is thousands of years long . It is fought on many fronts, including the internet . Patience is required

    Have fun . Its the internet . If it gets too much or you are upset about his insults then best turn the puter off . That’s your power . With a flick of the switch the anti-Semite is gone .

    If I have missed anything then sorry and feel free to add or amend

    LemonCurd

    • “Are you still here ? I thought it was an echo .

      Just heard that Hamas was looking for some more human shields. Margrain, this could be your opportunity to volunteer to do something practical .”
      Pot/Kettle

      • some of us here already done our time on the frontlines of conflict around the world [ not just Israel] . You have not . My suggestion was merely practical for you to gain first hand insight into the region that troubles you so badly .

        I am waiting for you to say something serious and relevant . Not some polemic you learned from a dodgy pamphlet .

      • It was only a suggestion for you to get experience on the ground of an area of the world that seems to trouble you rather . Its very hard to get wisdom from a hate filled dodgy pamphlet .
        Some of us have done our times in conflict hotspots in the world [ not just Israel] . Experience adds to insight.

        I didn’t realise that this helpful suggestion would hurt your feelings so .

    • Those who can only argue with crass insults are certainly not going to achieve real improvements to their neck of the woods or “friends” and as much goes for the anti-partitionists in Ireland as the anti-partitionists in Palestine. Billy Pitt the Younger put it pertinently, “Politics is the art of the practical.” To make a mistake once or even twice is human error. To persist in violence and the same mistake six times plus shows a certain lack of balance with the World. Palestine Arabs were given offers and opportunities to create a state in 1921 – created Jordan, 1937, 1947 and the Armistice 1949 – 67 but failed each time. Then – and it would be interesting if Daniel Margrain remembers this but he can always check press files in a major library – in June 67 after the surprise victory of the war Israel – too generously for its own good, offered its enemies to return to the Green Line in return for a peace treaty “ending the conflict.” They refused in the name of being humiliated by a defeat of their own inducing as in 1948; but the key to the Arab fate and foolishness is “ending the conflict” because since Oslo both Bara and Olmert offered compromise borders very close to the 1949 Armistice “Green Line” but the Arab parties refused because they were not going to agree toe “end the conflict” – which is an honesty of a sort. Since, the destruction of the Sykes- Picot Middle East by Saudi, Iranian, Turkish and Egyptian interference in Syria and Iraq in several ways also demolishes the justification of an Arab Palestine as the entire Arab Levant reverts to tribal enclaves in which the Masris and Mughrebis of Palestine return to Egypt and ex-French N Africa, while the Jaulanis Halabis and Turkis return to their ancestral North.

    • Curd, Illegal land confiscations predicated on a religious imperative presupposes that there exists a real estate agent in the heavens called God. The reality is that the establishment of illegal Israeli settlements and land grabs in the 21st century, is akin to modern day Brits being forced to hand over the deeds to their homes and land, in say, London to contemporary Italians on the basis that during a period in ancient history the Romans ruled Londinium. In other words, it’s a completely and utterly preposterous argument.

      Point two, neoZionism is unquestionably a fascist ideology which is why I’m not surprised that an ultra nationalist Jewish fundamentalist like you supports it. The comparison with Nazism in principle is therefore entirely fair.

      Finally, the notion that the Israeli fascists withdrew from Gaza is a canard as anybody who has properly studied this issue knows.

        • Yes and so is crossing the road while traffic lights are green in San Diego. No more non-sequitur’s please.

      • Leaving aside the positioning of the replies there are two questions in all arguments about the land as particular acres, or state entities.
        As long ago as 1977 there was a court case about what was registered as individually owned and what was waste or crown land. Further 70% of Mandate Palestine West of the R. Jordan was waste or crown and open to anybody who could cultivate it and put up a roof by sunset. 6% was Jewish owned and 24% Arab owned. As a result of the 77 case the Israelis held an exact survey as to what was personally owned and what not and since any building has not involved land already owned though I gather there is a building or two in Hebron subject to proceedings.
        As regards whether an area is collectively part of a state it would help if the Arabs instead of just rejecting every attempt to create a compromise did try to establish mutually agreed frontiers so that national responsibilities were taken up and clarified the situation. As things are the actual international law – like orders depends on the last formal order given – so that is the law when the British then Jordanians left and meanwhile military government is entitled to regulate reasonably for health and safety and other daily requirements. /it has ben obvious that the Arabs will have to pay a price for rejecting compromises in the past and the longer they dig in their heels the higher the price for their delay. Compare the Germans dishing the 1919 settlement of Europe and then losing more in 1945.

        • John, just because the invaders have opened the doors of the prison cells doesn’t mean that they don’t maintain their hold of the perimeter keys. As a neoZionist propagandist, you know this of course.

          • Islamofascist terrorist Pal-e-SWINIANS are being denied their “right” to kill Jews.

            That’s why they call it a Nakba.

            The latest Islamofascist attack on Brussels shows Eurabia and the rest of the regressive “progressive” world a bit of what Israel has to deal with.

            • What happens once can happen again: the Moghul empire in India got its due deserts and then the Pakistanis refused to be part of a single India- Why? The Turkish invasions of the Balkans were eventually defeated – largely by Russia and the Spanish Arabs were thrown out by the same sort of religious mania they provoked that had brought them in. Since WWII the Arabs have thrown out their Jews and assaulted them even before the creation of Israel – Baghdad 1941, Tripoli 1945, Yemen and Aden 1947….. and of course there is the notorious Turkish invasion with ethnic cleansing of the Greeks from North Cyprus – but Turkey is a NATO ally so we are not going to fuss over that one. We have now had any number of unjustified Moslem attacks in Europe ratcheting up the populist parties close to fascism as anti – foreigner feeling: Madrid Station, Brussels airport, the Gadaffi attack on the German night club and the beggars tramping through Greece who are by no means all Syrians; the unjustified synagogue shooting in Copenhagen and the Antwerp Jewish Museum shooting and so on including the 7/7 bus and tube bombs in London…. Do not be surprised if not only the French Jews flee to Israel or Montreal but if the other Jews in Europe leave and after that the locals get fed up with cocky undereducated religious maniacal power trip gangsters in the name of Islam and throw them out. It could be easily arranged with Saudi and Bahrain courtesy of the Iranian desire toe annex Bahrain and probably Qatar an the Saudi Eastern oil province. These states need Sunni Arabs to hold their territories against Iranian sponsored Shiite rebels and so will probably willingly take Sunnis from Europe and for that matter from “Palestine.” Armchair twerps on comfortable pensions will no doubt object in the name of liberty and equality but for real politicians faced with real civil discord and how to shut it down, do not be in the least surprised if there are to be some ethnic exchanges. Then compare how Israel has managed compared to the vicious authoritarian “rulers” alias blinkered thieves of the Arab World.

            • So judging the actions of a small minority of Islamic fanatics as though these actions are representative of Muslims as a whole is a rational position to take? Does that rationale also apply to the Jews?

              • Jews have never wanted more than to be let alone to live their lives and religion. In contrast there are more than enough surveys and historical evidence to substantiate the Moslems imperialist desires to impose themselves on the rest of the World (Spain, Balkans India) and kill those who refuse to toe the Moslem line – ethnic cleansing of Jews and Christians from the Middle East. Just check the surveys that the considerable majority of Moslems wish to have Sharia over local law and do not believe in democracy. Palestine is proof in miniature. The Jewish Zionist pioneers BOUGHT property in the same way that Abraham and David bought the Cave of Macpelah and the Threshing Floor of Araunah the Jebusite. The thinking is the same as in slavery days buying out fellow Jews and relatives. The imperialist Moslems starting with Mohammed as a successful warlord never pad a brass farthing for the Moslem World; and till forced by superior military never treated kaffirs as equal human beings.

  16. Anybody who thinks that ending the Arab war with Israel’s existence is a simple matter of Israeli return to the 1949 Armistice Green Line is either very young or has done no homework or thinks the rest of us are boobies. They are also forgetting that for Israel and Jews the lesson of the century is that if some low brow thugs promise to kill you then believe them. Between 1949 and 56 there was a furious border war of 12 000 incidents and 1200 Israeli casualties of whom over 400 fatalities. The 1956 Sinai Campaign put an end to most of the border reiving which had been deliberately organised by the Nasser government of Egypt but the international hostility and UN boycotts and refusal to talk continued. As I was born in 1941 I am old enough to remember as a witness what I am relating. In retrospect it was not without dry humour as Nasser with Syria paid for the creation of Fatah and the PLO and trained Arafart when he was a young agitator to be a nuisance because it was too risky to run an open regular war against Israel. Between 1949 and 67 Nasser and his friends inclusive the Saudi monarch of the time and Nuri Pasha effective ruler of Iraq who had been put in Post by Colonel Lawrence, all used to say they would not talk to Israel till she withdrew to the UN 181 suggested borders that they had themselves rejected in 1947. They never actually hinted nor agreed the would talk to Israel if she actually did withdraw Exactly parallel to post 67 Arabs saying they will do sweet FA unless Israel returns to the ’49 Green Line which they themselves refused to accept as the basis of a frontier and peace in June 67 post war never mind pre- war.
    The Arab war with Israelis not about territory but about whether the Jews of Israel have a right to their own nation state self determination. Given Arabs can not recognise their own nation states perhaps they should put their own houses in order first and leave Israel alone instead of needling her. Remember the school playground advice not to look for trouble as it finds you anyway.

    • Hi Frank, I might get a half decent discussion out of you. You mention the Arab rejection of 181 which you allude was unjustifiable but skirt over the rejection by the Jews of the 1937 Peel Partition plan. Why the double standard? The Jews have been granted self determination – it’s called Israel. To claim, as you have done, that the longstanding Israeli policy of ethnic cleansing is not about the aspiration to grab territory is just silly bordering on extreme self-delusion.To deny that Israel engages in illegal land grabs is to effectively deny its dual historical colonial role in the service of imperial power on the one hand while cementing Zionist expansionist ambitions on the other. When Britain took control of Palestine at the end of the First World War, Zionists lobbied the British government to this end on the basis that a Jewish Palestine would be a safeguard to the UK in regards to the Suez Canal. WW1 had underlined the importance of the Middle East with respect to sea routes to the Far East and contained the immensely profitable and strategically vital Persian oil fields. Britain was eager to find ways to consolidate its power in the region, in opposition to both the other imperial powers and the emerging anti-colonial nationalist movements in countries like Egypt. On November 2, 1917, the British foreign minister Lord Balfour, who as you probably know, was a notorious anti-Semite, helped facilitate the establishment of the Jewish State principally to get the Jews of his back. Herzl himself was explicit that the programme could be carried out only with the backing of one of the major imperialist powers, who were at that time carving up the world between them. Once such support had been won, the Zionist movement would conduct itself like other colonizing ventures.Various sites for the new state were considered, including Argentina and Madagascar, but the influence of religious Jews led the Zionists to decide on Palestine, the Biblical “promised land.” Herzl was aware, even if you don’t appear to be, that the newly created Jewish state would form, in his words, “a portion of the rampart of Europe against Asia”. In other words, the new state would be part of the system of colonial domination of the rest of the world.I’m amazed that you appear to be unaware of the historical colonial role Israel has played, and continues to play, in cementing Western imperial interests.