Guardian

Hook, Line and Sinker


The British elections scheduled for spring 2010 are going to be exceptionally interesting. After 12 years of New Labour rule, a big shake-up is predicted and although the electoral campaign began unofficially long ago, party leaders seem to be so far keeping most of their cards quite close to their chests. However, the leader of Britain’s third party, the Liberal Democrats, seems to have no problem with making his views on one issue perfectly clear. In his CiF article of December 22nd Nick Clegg proves yet again just how little he understands about the Middle East when he insists that Israel should ‘Lift the Gaza Blockade’. It was interesting to see below the line just what sort of people agree with Clegg’s views and what sort of opinions are held by those who could potentially support his party next spring.

Clunie

22 Dec 2009, 11:23AM

Good article Mr Clegg.

Meanwhile, twenty Israeli armored military vehicles, accompanied by Apache helicopters, invaded the al-Ghoul area in northern Gaza early Monday morning, Israeli soldiers invaded Bil’in on Saturday night, ransacking two homes, one civilian in Gaza was killed and four injured by Israeli attacks last week, hey ho, just the same old same old – odd how we’ll hear in the West about any attack on Israel, but the attacks on people in Gaza and elsewhere, which are daily, are barely if ever mentioned, giving the impression that everything’s fine and dandy and Palestinian attacks are launched for no reason at all simply because they’re nasty horrid people and, of course, it’s the Palestinians who are violent and beastly, always, according to all the above, if they ever retaliate.

For the person above who said that there’s worse suffering in other parts of the world, is it perpetrated and enabled by governments which we aid and assist and which describe themselves as Western democracies?

Time for sanity and one secular state for all.

raymonddelauney

22 Dec 2009, 11:34AM

There is a clear moral imperative for Israel and Egypt to end the blockade, as well as it being in their enlightened self-interest to change course. But if they do not do so of their own volition, it is up to the international community to persuade them otherwise.

Mr Clegg, despite your photo on the Liberal Democrat Friends of Israel I liked the article.

However, as exiledLondoner points out you will shortly be joining the snowballing list of anti-semites on another website. (This is a bit like being in the House of Commons and having to refer to the House of Lords as “the other place”).

A good article. I doubt there’s anything you can do to change things but you could stand up to the lobbyists within your party who advocate support for Israel-regardless-of-right-or-wrong.

Might I suggest that you do break the mold of all major party leaders and join a different lobby group within your party.

thesilentmajority

22 Dec 2009, 12:33PM

well said Nick,

Although i disagree with you on one point- at no stage have america supported the lift of the blockade- quite the opposite

for example, you mention the aid (blood money) Egypt gets every year from (around $5 billion) from america as a way to put pressure on Egypt to open borders. However, you and i knw that President Mubarak is just a western puppet although u wont admit it as a politician. In fact, it is the americans that are helping the egyptians build the metal wall around the gaza border. Let face it- america can easily solve the problem if it wants to

Solution

1) America cuts aid to Israel- Israel have done absolutely nothing towards moving to a peaceful solution- Since 1993 settlements and check points have doubled-

2) It is not enough for the EU not to ‘upgrade’ relations with Israel- it is time for a complete boycott (at least products coming from the occupied land). Hit where it hurts the most- the economy- the EU is israel biggest trade partner and the economy has been booming with the aid of america (israel receive more aid from america than any other country)

3) Make them accountable to the international body- I am sick and tired of the US blocking Un resolution against israel whether it be war crimes or so on

Every country whether Iran or israel need to treated the same

We need the same action that was taken against SA in the 1980s/1990

And we must also recognise that Hamas arent terrorist (as werent the ANC in SA- even though they were branded as terrorist too) but a popular and elected group in palestine. Hamas have made it perfectly clear that they support the two state solution based on a soverienty palestine state (with air space, military and no settlements and so on ). They arent going to agree to any preconditions- why shud they? they wont av any thing to negotiate with

and nor does israel comply to any of them

For example

1) Recognise Israel- when has israel recognised a plaestine state with sovereignty including EJ- never

2) Give up arm resistence- well, shudnt israel give up its arms aswell and its 200-3000 nuclear warheads

3) agree previous agreement- wat agreements av israel complied too- in 2003-Israel agreed to stop settlement consttruction- never done- since 1993 the number has doubled

The simple truth is that israel isnt seeking peace, it is seeking palestine which will prove its biggest downfall. The bigger israel becomes, the plaestinians there are in ‘israel’. Already in israel- 1/5 of the population are arabs ( and that number is set ti increas with their birth rate alot higher than israelis). My prediction- 20 years from now one state one solution-

for the plaestinians and the arab world at large- the time has come for you to stand up for your own rights and forget wat obama or the leaders of the free world say- like nick said they done nothing

To my brothers in SA, Eygpt and Jordan – rise up against ur repressive leaders

Once the people of these nation have a say- the muslim world or the 57 states can unite and put pressure on europe and the USA- the simple threat of cutting the oil supply is enough for them to change their policy towards israel- and if they dotn decide to go to war- i like to see them take on 57 muslim states at once (they cant even beat 2)

Palestians- the time has come for hamas and fatah to make agreements- and for abbas to step down and hold ‘fair election- the most important point is not to allow external factor (USA) to influcence the agreement

the divided you are the easier the israeli can control you

awkassim

22 Dec 2009, 12:44PM

Brilliant article.

British government and EU can see and are in support of all that is happening in Gaza and the Occupied Palestine.

They are tongue tied by the Jewish lobby who will accuse them of bieng anti-semitic if they spoke against Israel just like Nick will be accussed of as from now.

Justice and truth will always prevail in the end and the Palestinians will be free.

They do not need US, EU, British Government and even the support of the Arab countries to bail them out of their situation.

For the past 60 years they have held on to all that has been thrown at them yet they are still surviving.

Its the Israelis who sleep with guns next to them in case they are called for national service if attacked and would never survive for a second, if it were not for the Trillions of dollars worth of aid from the Americans.

Sensitive1

22 Dec 2009, 6:23PM

Finally someone with the courage to say what needs to be said. I have long supported the boycott of all Israeli products and services. This inhuman regime and its shameful policies must be brought to justice. I note that more than 80% of Tory and 60% of Labour MP’s have received financing from Friends of Israel. Wonder why it took a LibDem to speak out?

antimutoid

22 Dec 2009, 6:23PM

A well timed article as we are 5 days away from marking the one year anniversary of what Tzipi Livni is “proud of”. The indiscriminate killing of over 1400 people, including hundreds of children and subjecting Gaza to terrorism and collective punishment is something which she regards as an “achievement”.

The blockade is illegal, it is a prime example of collective punishment and therefore forbidden by international law. But Israel is a disdainful and a reckless state, motivated by aggrandizing tendencies requiring the subversion of all international norms.

Is it any wonder some of Netanyahu’s cabinet want to transfer prisoners to the Gaza strip instead of the West Bank? Gaza itself is an “open air prison”, and so those prisoners enjoy no freedom, just merely transferring from an Israeli judicial prison to a makeshift ghetto.

Among the other comments on this thread was a particularly bizarre selection, commencing with someone who still hasn’t accepted the fact that the ‘Jenin Massacre’ never was.

Ranong

22 Dec 2009, 9:16AM

…The civilised world allowed the spoiled children of the Israeli government to get away with the Jenin massacre and various other war-crimes in Nablus and elsewhere in 2002…

[recreated from HenryW 22 Dec 2009, 9:24AM]

Ranong

22 Dec 2009, 3:23PM

mherring

“Unexploded shell” on the Gaza beach, eh? You are really surpassing yourself today.

And there was no white phosphorous. And no Jenin massacre. And the Palestinians left willingly in 1948….the list of self -deception is endless.

Then there were those who downplay terror and/or distort facts and history in order to justify their own world view.

pongothecat

22 Dec 2009, 8:45AM

Don’t worry, Nick. the usual suspects will be along presently to explain that the one and a half million Gazans are terrorists or potential terrorists.They’ll only use the cement and bricks to make cement and brick bombs to kill (or badly bruise) the world’s most ‘moral army’…

bergamo

22 Dec 2009, 9:25AM

actually the Israel government has all the interest to keep up the pressure: it produces the reaction that, dubbed terrorism, justifies at the eyes blinded by fear, stupidity, and simply money, of the European and American elites, and of the Jewish diaspora the renewed pressure and dispossession.

If everything were calm on the Southern front, what argument would Israel have to continue building settlements, expropriating Palestinian Jeruselemites, keeping thousands in jail, in brief continuing its colonial enterprise?

Which is why, whenever Hamas proposes a truce, lo and behold! something happens: an Israeli commando breaks the ceasefire and kills some Hamas leader, or there is some other provocation known to cause a reaction which will be shown to the international media and our idiotic and/or bought politicians to justify an attack.

Papalagi

22 Dec 2009, 1:46PM

TawdryDog 22 Dec 2009, 9:02AM

presented a rosy picture of Gaza under Israeli treatment. It’s an exemple of cynicism of the worst kind. Nothing of what he writes is correct. He speaks as if there wasn’t any Israeli blockade and siege, as if Israel hadn’t destroyed a lot of civilian infrastructure, as if Gazans were free to produce, trade, live, import and export. They are not. I’ll post again the link to a reportage about water, sewage and pollution in Gaza even if it’s in German. Images speak for themselves. The only place where water appears to be clear we hear a comment that it’s in fact contaminated, poisoned:

http://fareus.wordpress.com/2009/11/13/gaza-gefangen-in-der-kloake/

Right after his post there is one by mmmherring (22 Dec 2009, 9:14AM) talking about the “murderous intentions” of Hamas and so on. Nobody would accept this as a justification of Israeli systematic violence against the Palestinians. Nobody would accept this same talk if it were about Israel and not about the Palestinian. In the case of Israel we don’t need to talk about their true “intentions”, we can read history books telling about facts, deeds.

CapedCrusader

22 Dec 2009, 3:09PM

But mmmherring the IDF are regularly shelling Palestinian fishermen and farmers. What would your excuse be for that?

CapedCrusader

22 Dec 2009, 2:38PM

QUOTE “JimboJ, I would tell Israel and Egypt to stop the blockade and make Hamas promise not to launch missiles into southern Israel and to stop calls for Israel’s destruction”

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/nov/22/gaza-militant-groups-rockets-Israel

Gaza militant groups agree to stop firing rockets into Israel

Deal appears to be attempt by Hamas to prevent another descent into conflict

I’m not aware that Hamas has called for Israel’s destruction, or Iran for that matter. Hamas has even offered, countless times, to recognise Israel within their legal borders. It’s difficult I know because israel is probably the only country in the world which believes its borders extend daily.

Constituent

22 Dec 2009, 8:57AM

Evil is as evil does, and people should not automatically assume that they are on the good side.

In a short thread that briefly appeared yesterday, the point was made that Israel refused to negotiate with terrorists, apparently forgetting the British killed and kidnapped by Jewish terrorists (The Stern Gang and others) before the state of Israel was set up. Now, if the British had refused to negotiate with terrorists….

Revenge rarely works, and the Bible states “An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth”, not an eye for a tooth.

As usual, some CiF posters had no problem using Nazi analogies.

alpujjaran

22 Dec 2009, 9:24AM

if you heard the Israeli ambassador on the radio this morning you would have immediately sensed in his smug inversions of the truth, a people (the Israelis) who are utterly blind to the destruction they are calling upon themselves in their inhumane and Nazi-like treatment of the Ghazans. The Romans built Hadrian’s wall to keep out the northern hoards. The wall is still there but long gone are the Romans. So it will be with the Israelis. The wall is a symbol of their fear and brutality that they brought with them when they invaded Palestine 50 years ago. As the East Germans will tell you the building of a wall is a sign of weakness not strength.

Zangmo

22 Dec 2009, 4:14PM

Lift the blockade and exercise stricter labeling on products coming out of Palestine, banning all Israeli products.

It makes me sick to think Israelis, who i used to have so much empathy for, have become like nazis.Cant they relate the activities of Hamas to the resistance which grew up in the Warsaw ghetto?

Or are they planning a reinactment?

And there were those who prefer apartheid analogies.

Clunie

22 Dec 2009, 11:34AM

TheHebrewHammer: The same was said about apartheid – that black south Africans didn’t want to share their nation and Afrikkaners wouldn’t allow equality. Time and views do move on, thankfully.

There are those who promote the BDS movement.

ellymiranda

22 Dec 2009, 10:05AM

I don’t even see how the blockade can be there in the first place: it’s illegal.

What we need is a blockade on Israel.

There are those who claim that Israelis are hysterical and over-react.

babel69

22 Dec 2009, 11:08AM

Given the Israeli tendency towards hypersensitivity to real/perceived threats, combined with often wild overreaction to those threats, I won’ t be surprised if they bomb Krakow next week in retaliation for the drunken petty criminals who stole the sign in front of Auschwitz.

Imogenblack – I know it’s tacky to be pedantic about spelling here, but seriously…

handy tip – like the old rhyme from pre-school says, “a” before “e” especially after “Isr”…

And there are those who simply dehumanise Israelis.

alemild

22 Dec 2009, 11:07AM

endofdays

I don’t really care how “disproportionate” Operation Cast Lead was.

keep it coming, the sooner people understand, from statements like this, the depths of inhumanity of Zionism and supporters of Zionism the better it will be for all…

KrustytheKlown

22 Dec 2009, 1:48PM

more and more obstacles are being put in his way to deter other activitists from highlighting the horror of israels inhumane policies.

Surely as a high-ranking politician Clegg has some influence? Could he not at least table a motion urging Britain to send ships, under military escort, to deliver aid to the people of Gaza? Of course it woudl be shot down by the ‘freinds of Israel’ groups (including the one in his own party) but the point would have been made. A bit like the Livni arrest warrent – the person who made it knew there was no chance of it being acted upon, but it embarressed Livni and the stooges who defended her. As I’ve said before, the cumulative effect of highlighting Israel’s inhuman behaviour – in parliament, on the streets, in the courts – is beginning to make an impact, and is the best weapon the Palestinians have.

Of course, the usual one-staters were in evidence too.

justinpeace

22 Dec 2009, 3:52PM

Of course the only viable long term solution is the One State solution. Why is that so difficult to contemplate? All that is required is some Israeli humility and Palestinian forgiveness. This is the sacred land after all isn’t it?

Add to the basic ingredients the return of refugees and the recognition of equal rights for ALL people. Plus some respect and tolerance for other people’s faith and voila! A democratic peaceful vibrant Palestein with the New Jerusalem as it’s capital.

Peace, Justice, Freedom.

Amen to that…..

Ranong

22 Dec 2009, 11:20AM

May I answer for alemild, Hammer?

Tell them that they can’t have other peoples’ property and that, if they learn to respect human rights and racial equality they can share Greater Palestine with the indigenous peoples on the principle of of one person, one vote.

Ranong

22 Dec 2009, 11:38AM

And what does Hammer know about what the Palestinians want?

A secular state with equal rights would be a popular option for the vast majority; both Christian and Muslim.

The proponents of the various conspiracy theorists were really out in force on this thread.

Ranong

22 Dec 2009, 10:59AM

And why does the civilised world let them get away with it? We could break the blockade tomorrow by sending a convoy under RN protection in support of international law; what Blair calls “humanitarian intervention.”

Imogen Black; Mr Clegg tolerates a “friends of Israel” lobby group in his party.

(There’s also a ‘Lib Dem Friends of Palestine’ group, of course.)

alemild

22 Dec 2009, 11:25AM

Nick Clegg

And what has the British government and the international community done to lift the blockade? Next to nothing

..but surely you must know that the “British” government is currently packed to the gunwales with the Friends of Israel. Could there ever be doubt that this “British” government would ever have anything but unswerving loyalty to the Jewish state?

Is it not in Israel’s enlightened self-interest to relieve the humanitarian suffering?

well I suppose if (and only IF) it was in their self-interest they may just consider it….but for no other reason and definitely not on the grounds that the suffering of Palestinian children might be eased.

CapedCrusader

22 Dec 2009, 12:12PM

Couldn’t agree more raymonddelauney

The Channel4 program “Dispatches” on 18/11 provided a very interesting insight into how lobbying groups, some representing foreign interests, even governments, influences our foreign policy by bankrolling politicians, obviously with strings attached.

Ever since the illegal invasion of Iraq, I have long thought that our Government,with the support of the opposition, have clearly made choices contrary to the wishes, benefit and approval of the British public at large.

In Monday’s program in regards to Israel, (Ref http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1195879/PETER-OBORNE-Why-David-Cameron-wont-sack-expenses-cheats.html )

David Cameron is reported to have said before a “Conservative Friends of Israel” meeting that “Israel strives to protect innocent lives”.

Presumably that this refers to the same Israel that embarked on a genocidal attack, genocide as defined by the United Nations, on the Gaza Strip in January ’09. The same Israel that used white phosphorus on densely populated civilian areas, the same Israel that killed over 1,400 people, the majority of which were civilian and a high proportion of women and children. The same Israel that has been heavily criticised in the UN commissioned Goldstone report which detailed numerous atrocities and came to the conclusion that ” Israel intentionally targeted Gaza civilian sites”.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1117893.html

Furthermore a little research reveals that Israel planned as early as Oct ’08 to use “disproportionate force”. http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1026539.html

So how exactly does David Cameron translate these facts into Israel striving to protect innocent lives? Clearly there is something amiss in British politics, statements are being made, actions taken, which do not correspond with the facts or the truth, for the benefit of lobby groups in order to gain financial incentives, actually a far worse scandal than the “expenses” episode.

The “Dispatches” program mentioned that over 80% of Conservatives are in allegiance with the “Friends of Israel” , I believe similar infiltration also applies to Labour and the Lib Dems and I wonder why so many would be interested in being friends to a state that practises discrimination, ignores countless UN Resolutions and illegally occupies the greatest part of Palestine.

British poilitics need an urgent overhaul and the solution can only be made by financing all political parties from the public purse and making it illegal for any donations or incentives being offered by any individual or lobbying group. Only until then can we be sure that politicians will be looking after the electorate’s interests rather their own or those of fringe groups.

raymonddelauney

22 Dec 2009, 12:15PM

CapedCrusader

22 Dec 2009, 12:12PM

Couldn’t agree more raymonddelauney

Watch out CapedCrusader there’s a load of Zionist Paul Daniels out there, who will now make your post – as if by magic – disappear.

doask

22 Dec 2009, 1:33PM

as usual with israeli apologists, its never israels fault – its always some one else.

so netanyahu claims israel to be a jewish state, in what way does this jewish state represent the values of the torah, of judaism its morality and ethics?

is israel really a jewish state as israels politicians claim?

No doubt the febrile sensitivities of the Middle East have deterred governments, caught between recriminations from both sides. No doubt diplomats have warned that exerting pressure on Israel and Egypt may complicate the peace process.

nothing deterred us into going to war against iraq, afghansitan, nothing has deterred us in torture, black hole prisons, nothing has deterred in dealing with fascistic, despotic regimes around the world.

the fact is that the uk and usa government stands shoulder to shoulder with israel and all of israels inhumanities , most recently acknowledged by the UN relating to last years war on gaza.

lets be wholly honest there are no sensitivities that we defere to other than israels.

doask

22 Dec 2009, 1:50PM

Hamas holds the key to the prison, they just would rather have their people die in their search for “good publicity” than better their lives.

actually the key is held by the israelis via the usa-uk.

the problem with israel is that it is afraid of its jewishness so it opts for zionism.

the problem with the usa-uk is that they would much prefer to have jewish people in israel rather than on their shores. supporting zionists is however another matter.

the problem with clegg is that he along with the rest of the uk political establishment have too greater vested interests with israels zionists than with justice, humanity, dignity of the ordinary palestinian.

doask

22 Dec 2009, 2:02PM

The fact is that it ISNT simple at all.

The fact is that it is very simple.

Hamas and other factions signed upto the Saudi Peace plan.

Israel, UK, USA dont want peace. sorry let me be more accurate they dont want a Just Peace.

At the very least Hamas offered a 10 year truce but israel fears a economically viable palestinian state so denies it any opportunity .

Israel (alnog with usa-uk) also has its eyes on the vast oil/gas reserves off the Gazan shore. it is why we wont support Hamas or any real Ppalestinian representative only the likes of Abbas.

You see it is Hamas, the Palestinians who would out benefit Israel because of this oil-gas . We cant allow that to happen.

stevehill

22 Dec 2009, 2:07PM

alemild

..but surely you must know that the “British” government is currently packed to the gunwales with the Friends of Israel. Could there ever be doubt that this “British” government would ever have anything but unswerving loyalty to the Jewish state?

All the more reason, in the forthcoming election campaign, for you to ask every candidate who wants your vote if he’s a FoI, in which case sorry, but you have no choice but to vote for someone else.

They’ll ride this gravy train – and the attendant free holidays – for as long as they can, unless and until they are made to realise it’s an electoral liability.

KrustytheKlown

22 Dec 2009, 2:29PM

All the more reason, in the forthcoming election campaign, for you to ask every candidate who wants your vote if he’s a FoI, in which case sorry, but you have no choice but to vote for someone else.

They’ll ride this gravy train – and the attendant free holidays – for as long as they can, unless and until they are made to realise it’s an electoral liability

Precisely.

I think it’s a safe bet that very few of the “Friends of Israel” have any deep commitment to Israel. They would be friends of Burkina Faso if lobbyists for that country gave them generous donations for pluggging the official line, and threatened to cause them political pain if they did not. The minute being an apologist for Israel ceased to be financially and/or politically benefitcial, 90% of these ‘freinds’ would drop it like a stone. Let’s hasten the day that happens.

As I keep saying, there are encouraging signs that years of sustaned pro-Palestinain activism – combined with the horrors from Gaza beamed on every TV screen, no matter how much certain TV channels tried to tone it down – are beginning to have an effect. Much more work needs to be done of course, but there are encouraging indicators that the tide is fianlly turning.

NoraDoll

22 Dec 2009, 4:43PM

I have only just come to this Cif article and so only got down as far as James Smith ridiculous post and then I stopped reading and had to write something. James Smith’s first post and subsequent posts are disgusting- let’s not forget that Gaza is the overcrowded, poverty stricken and desperate place it is because many Palestinians were forced to flee there from the what is now Israel to escape death during the Nakba. Many are refugees and many are children and many of them were killed during Operation Cast Lead. Every international charity has condemned Operation Cast lead and there have been warrants threatened for Israeli politicians who were involved. Disproportionate action…that is the biggest understatement.

Yes, there are hamas militants in Gaza, no one denies there are not but please go to the West Bank (where I was this summer) and spend some time with the IDF and look at the way they treat Palestinians – it is disgusting but the world accepts it because they are deemed a ‘legitimate’ army and because no nation stands up to Israeli power of the pro-Zionist lobby world wide. Obama is a prime example, without the Zionist vote he will not get a second term and therefore keeps his nobel peace prize winning mouth firmly closed

Israel continues to push Palestinians into a corner; they take their land, their water, their economy, they imprison them without charge, and take their dignity and their freedom and you wonder why people are desperate and why they do desperate things (and I am not saying they are right) but you seem to have erased the last 60 years of history. Of course there are horrible situations all over the world- the Congo, Rwanda, Zimbabwe, Yemen but this is no excuse for the desperate situation in Gaza. Israel are only creating another generation of angry, damaged young people and therefore only giving more ammunition to Hamas to gather new recruits. Those that support this aparteid, racist, violent state should be ashamed of themselves.

Then we had the rather novel idea of a ‘Jewish Taquiya’, which seemed to catch on quite quickly.

CapedCrusader

22 Dec 2009, 3:03PM

QUOTE “The Palestinians have no track record whatsoever in honoring any deal or any steps towards peace.”

Actually it’s the opposite that is true , including the prelude to the genocide in Gaza in Dec08/Jan/09. Perhaps the brick wall we are faced with is because of the following.

Baba Kamma 113a. Jews may use lies (“subterfuges”) to circumvent a Gentile

Matzpen

22 Dec 2009, 3:50PM

SantaMoniker

Therefore the only place he/she could have lifted this citation, if it is even correct, is from one of the anti-Semitic websites that regularly rehash a few citations from the thousands and thousands of pages of Jewish theocratic works, including the Talmud, the Gemara, the Zohar, the Old testament, the Prophets, etc. whether true or not.

As opposed to the definitely Arabic-reading, Qom-educated, Koranic scholar, pro-Zionist posters who quote sundry hadith and a thousand other Wahabbi scholars ranting about “pigs and apes” etc. etc. ad nauseum?

Come now!

I don’t know this poster but it is absolutely fair to say that there is a great deal of such teaching in Jewish literature – this is entirely inevitable since Judaism is not intended as a doctrine of universal morality.

Double-dealing is not on.

CapedCrusader

As you see all the derogatory references to Christianity, goim etc were deleted due to “Christian censorship” but they have now been restored.

22 Dec 2009, 3:53PM

Well SantaMoniker I don’t mind you calling me anti-semitic, it has come to be defined as any criticism of Israel or Zionism and the talmud is very much a part of that..

The Talmud has been translated to English, it’s not necessary to understand Hebrew. There are of course more than one Talmud, on this site for example http://www.lee-achim.de/html/HebBooks.htm you can see a Jewish dealer in antiquities selling “Old Talmud Editions” , some of which contained, and I quote ” The first Amsterdam edition of the Babylonian Talmud in the printing house of Emmanuel Benbenisti 1645/48 was the first Talmud edition without the Christian censorship after the three classical Venice editions of the 16th century that were almost completely burnt. All the missing parts on Jesus, his disciples and early Christianity are restored in this edition, and also the dismission of words as goim, nokri, kuti and alike. After this edition all Talmud editions are again censored till the 20th century, including the following Amsterdam editions of Proops and the classic Wilna edition more than 200 years later.

And finally; the downright delusional!

CapedCrusader

22 Dec 2009, 4:03PM

Why is the Talmud Relevant? is it a guide book for Israeli policy? for the IDF’s?

It certainly seems that way, the IDF seems to be controlled by religious nutjobs.

IDF Chief Rabbi Teaches Torah to Terrorists, Advises Soldiers to Show Palestinian Civilians ?No Mercy? http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2009/01/27/idf-chief-rabbi-teaches-torah-to-terrorists-advises-soldiers-to-show-palestinian-civilians-no-mercy/

IDF rabbinate publication during Gaza war: We will show no mercy on the cruel

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1058758.html

Israeli army rabbi ‘gave out hate leaflet to troops entering Gaza’

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/israeli-army-rabbi-gave-out-hate-leaflet-to-troops-entering-gaza-14159082.html

yorkandy

22 Dec 2009, 1:42PM

nice to see you taking an interest in Gaza, Mr. Clegg……….so why, exactly, are you a patron of the racist jewish national fund, along with Brown and Cameron?

ellymiranda

22 Dec 2009, 12:21PM

freewoman

Thank you for your replay.

Will you join me in a demand for investigation on rapes carried out by the IDF carried out on the Westbank and Gaza? it is omitted in the Goldstein report.

Matzpen

22 Dec 2009, 1:33PM

DPerrone99

Tal Nitzan, Hebrew University…I think it was 2007. The study caused an uproar, as Israel was forced to admit that its soldiers do not rape Palestinian women.

Any more. Ben-Gurien’s diary is littered with episodes of rape from the 1948 war.

Most studies suggest rape is a weapon used by a conquering army as part of the drive toward expulsion, hence its proliferation in 1948; when the IDF have acted since they have done so in the knowledge that their potential victims, this time, would not flee. Day to day dealings with ones victims is something only the most depraved of people can deal with (the IDF are bad, but they are not that. Not yet anyway.)

Hence its decline as a weapon of war since 1948.

Now, of course, one could say that there is no link between the type of comments which appeared below the line on CiF and Clegg’s article above, but would that be exact? Is the Lib Dem policy on the Middle East in fact so far removed from the strange world inhabited by many a CiF commentator?

Well, obviously from his above article, Clegg is in favour of lifting what he terms the Gaza Blockade, without any thought whatsoever of the consequences or the reasons why such actions might have been taken in the first place. Like many of those at CiF, Clegg seems to have swallowed the ‘escalating humanitarian crisis’ line without asking, for instance, why the supposedly impoverished Hamas regime has some strange priorities when it comes to spending money on things which could actually benefit the local population. Clegg uses the ‘illegal settlement activity’ argument as adroitly as any CiF commenter and seems to have adopted Victoria Brittain’s recent article as gospel truth despite its thorough deconstruction by CAMERA. Just a year ago, Clegg was advocating boycotts against Israel  and he even seems to have doubts as to the status of Hamas as a terrorist organisation as defined by the UK and US.

As is well known, the Lib Dem peer Baroness Jenny Tonge, who was ‘upwardly promoted’ after expressing sympathy with Palestinian suicide bombers, and has made statements regarding the ‘pro-Israel lobby’, has gone out of her way to meet terrorists proscribed by the British government and considers Khaled Mashaal a ‘likeable man’, and yet Nick Clegg still refuses to distance himself from someone with such extremist views.

So from where does Nick Clegg get his understanding of the Middle East? Well, he has visited Israel at the expense of CAABU.

CAABU is of course an organization which has been promoting the boycotting of Israeli goods for years and promotes openly anti-semitic events . In fact CAABU and the Lib Dems appear to have a rather cosy relationship which would seem to have had quite an effect upon Mr. Clegg’s views when it comes to the question of the Middle East.

Clegg is a party leader hoping to attract the British public’s vote in a few months’ time in a bid to put the Lib Dems in a serious position on the political map for the first time. But someone with such similar approaches and opinions to those found below the line at CiF; someone who has so obviously fallen hook, line and sinker for a one-sided view of the problems of the Middle East, cannot be taken seriously and most certainly cannot be trusted with the government of Britain, particularly with the stain of anti-semitism as prevalent as it is today in British society.

13 replies »

  1. Its hard to say it on a British site that the UK has become Somalia with chip chops. The younger Churchill warned us in the 1980s about whether there will still be an England. When politicians have to pander to Islamism to win office, one wonders whether the country can still be saved – a fearsome prospect given the UK’s libel laws and the extent to which political correctness has taken hold of British society. To push back the Islamic hordes seems as tall an order as King Canute ordering the tides to be held back.

  2. I can’t say that I know all that much about British politics, but reading this piece by Israelinurse, I was reminded of the re-election campaign of former London mayor Ken Livingstone: one of the first endorsements that ran in the Guardian was “Muslims for Ken”, and their main argument for his re-election as London mayor was that he had the right views on the Middle East… So let’s hope that what worked so well for Livingstone will work similarly well for anybody else who runs on the “Livingstone formula”.

  3. The LibDems are the third party in British politics. The Liberals once had a chance of entering into a coalition, I forget whether it was with the Conservative or the Labour party, whereas today’s LibDems are probably made up of a great many provincial don’t knows led by a bunch of vocal extremists who espouse a toxic mix of dogmas embracing anti-establishment, anti-capitalist, anti-American, and of course anti-Zionist sentiments, with a pinch of new age thrown in for good measure.

    Better the devil you know, ie. new Labour or the Conservatives, than these ignorant sobs.

  4. Remarkable continuing effort IN

    I enjoyed reading your article – not so much the comments. The Guardian made a remarkable statement in their horrendous editorial last week:

    “…….Stasis suits Hamas…..”

    In other words, Hamas thrives on the status quo. Hamas brings misery on their own constituents for political gain. The Guardian “slip” seems to be a rare exception as far as the left goes. So its really no surprise that a liberal democrat like Clegg only sees the solution from the Israeli side of the conflict.

  5. Let us hope that the extreme lefties leave Labor for the LibDems.

    They have been flirting with various Militant Muslim organisations.

    They want to introduce electoral reforms to be like the List system in Israel. That all by itself shows how sick they are to ‘get power’.

  6. Nick Clegg’s naive view of Israel/Palestine is astonishing for a party leader. I saw him speak at a Jewish community event and he gave an appaling, wriggling performance. It was only the hellishly soft-handed chairing of it that let Clegg get away with it. The Lib Dems are a small party but they contain a suprising amount of antisemites, crooks and sexually-dodgy creeps.

  7. It was interesting to see below the line just what sort of people agree with Clegg’s views and what sort of opinions are held by those who could potentially support his party next spring.

    a) How do you know which posters will be voting at the next UK elections?
    b) What indications are there that these posters will vote Lib Dem?

    Or are you assuming one-issue voting?

    p.s. First comment below the line constitutes anti-Muslim hatred. On a site that puts challenging hatred at the focus of its efforts, I find it rather curious that nobody else takes issue with NormanF …

    It does make me wonder what this site and its fans really is about.

  8. Pretzelberg:

    Of course I understand your point. The fact is that every site of this type attracts its share of loonies, ignoramuses (ignorami?) or mentally challenged. Take your choice in NormanF’s case. What’s the point of arguing with him ?