Guardian

Si Facile


Dr. Tony Klug tried to persuade us in a recent article in CiF that the Iranian problem can be circumvented if only Israel would accept the Arab Peace Initiative. What Dr. Klug did not point out, of course, are some of the more problematic aspects of that initiative such as the fact that it is not a negotiated agreement and therefore Israel is not a party to its wording. It is, in fact, a ‘parachuted’ or imposed initiative which its authors are so far not prepared to submit to negotiation of any kind, despite the fact that some of its clauses are deeply problematic for Israel. The mammoth in the room is, of course, that Hamas has not signed up to the initiative and indeed the day of the birth of the Arab Peace Initiative was also the day of the bloody terrorist attack by Hamas on the Park Hotel in Netanya. Some Hamas officials have been very clear about their view of the initiative:

The spokesman for Hamas in the Palestinian parliament, Salah al-Bardawil, told Haaretz, “we will not agree to recognition of Israel or peace with it [as it appears in the initiative]. We have no problem with the part of the initiative that calls for the establishment of a Palestinian state on the 1967 borders and the right of refugees to return.”

Beyond this, Dr. Klug also manages to completely ignore the proxy wars which Iran is waging throughout the entire Middle East in Lebanon, Gaza, Israel, Iraq and Yemen. In addition, the links between Iran and Al Qaida are becoming clearer, as is the fact that any nuclear weapons which Iran may acquire would be unlikely to be aimed at Israel alone.

This ability to be willingly blinkered to the wider realities of the Middle East is reflected in some of the comments below the line in this article where posters deliberately misrepresented the true nature of Iranian proxies Hamas and Hizbollah.

bass46

11 Jan 2010, 12:24PM

ThePrompter

Hezbollah are Lebanese, they were set up to resist Israeli attacks on Lebanon. They were part funded, armed, and supported by Iran in the same way that Israel is part funded, armed, and supported by the USA.

Well said. Israeli supporters would misrepresent anything to justify violence. Thus Hamas and Hezbollah become simple tools of an evil Iran with no other purpose than total Israeli destruction, instead of resistance groups who only exist at all because of previous Israeli violence and intransigence (or in the case of Hamas, Israeli money) and whose main purpose is to get Israel to give back land it’s taken.

thesilentmajority

11 Jan 2010, 12:42PM

01100010

Iran openly supports Hezbollah and Hamas, which are both democratically elected. The West back dictators and israel which has frankly terrible record itself with the treatment of palestinians.

lets not forget that is was ISRAEL who orginally backed hamas

nutznboltz

11 Jan 2010, 11:43AM

I don’t believe that Iran is in the habit of waging war or for that matter engaged in the casual act of doing away with Arab peoples. They’ve got serious internal horror with enforcement of such extreme sharia law. It’s no joke.

Yes they do have a proven record of support for Arab minority groups with extremely militant attitudes, directed at the usual suspects who prefer to describe them as terrorists. As if they themselves were pure as driven snow.

It is perfectly rational to conclude that from their point of view it’s quite reasonable to seek a deterent (presumed) as the immediate neighbourhood is hardly what might be considered secure. Sort of a zero tolerance strategy.

Something the naughty boys, they know who they are, with their toys will understand.

Bass46

11 Jan 2010, 12:08PM

A very good article which sums up the realities of Iran and proposes reasonable and concrete steps to try and improve things. Excellent.

Unfortunately this bit

But that would require Israel to halt and reverse its invasive and self-destructive colonisation programme in the West Bank.

makes progress all but impossible and further conflict inevitable.

DG14

It is simply intolerable, and can you blame Israel for wishing to deny nuclear weapons to a regime which supports terrorists who actively try to destroy it? Surely not.

Yes. If a situation being intolerable made any difference then Israel would have lifted the siege of Gaza. Your argument, by definition, assumes that Iran would give nuclear weapons to terrorists to detonate in Israel. The author has clearly stated why this would be a catastrophic idea for the Iranian regime as it would result in their complete destruction. If you really believe the Mullah’s are suicidal, and not just people who expect others to be suicidal on their behalf, then you must have a serious problem differentiating propaganda from fact.

Israel want’s to be top dog so it can feel “secure”. The trouble is it’s insecurity is a state of mind as much as any real threat from outside, and only national psychotherapy can fix it. Over the past 30 years they’ve attacked or invaded their neighbours countless times and it’s not made them feel one jot more secure, even as the actual threats have retreated to the point of invisibility. Now it’s become dogma to think that any kind of negotiation or withdrawal is a sign of weakness, even though constant aggression brings nothing but death and hatred.

So yes, blame Israel for it’s oft repeated threats to attack Iran. All they’re doing is helping support their enemy and a state of conflict behind which they can continue to take land and justify their own violence. They could withdraw from the Golan Heights and seek a real peace with Syria. They could withdraw from Shebba Farm and at a stroke remove Hezzbollah’s excuse for a military wing. They could tear down the wall and stop building on the West Bank – removing illegal settlements – and risk peace with Palestinians. They could have honoured the ceasefire and lifted the siege of Gaza to negotiate with Hamas, but that would mean removing settlements on the West Bank as part of a deal.

They don’t want a deal. Israel wants conflict and land even more than the mad mullah’s, for perfectly rational reasons if you think constant war is rational.

ThePrompter

11 Jan 2010, 12:14PM

TheHebrewHammer –

“Iran already attacked Israel via Hezbollah”

Hezbollah are Lebanese, they were set up to resist Israeli attacks on Lebanon. They were part funded, armed, and supported by Iran in the same way that Israel is part funded, armed, and supported by the USA.

JamesSmith993 –

“Iran are run by crazy jerks. They are the problem.”

“Irrational people need to stop blaming Israel for what other people do”

Irrational people need to stop supporting the ‘crazy jerks’ in Israel irrespective of what they do. They are the problem.

bass46

11 Jan 2010, 1:32PM

DG14

Why is Israel insecure? Is it a natural thing? Does Israel have a national psychological problem?

There are understandable causes without going back too far. The Holocaust for one, and the past concerted efforts of Arab states for two. The trouble is that this situation no longer exists, except in the minds of, apparently, most Israeli’s. I take your point about past injustices, but cannot accept that that is a reason to perpetrate further injustices.

The portrayal of Israel as a constant victim is also totally false, but has become a default position. How can it be that despite all the death meted out by the IDF, with no one seriously able to oppose it, Israel is still a victim in it’s own eyes, under perpetual threat of destruction? This is a psychological problem, and one which is both played upon and magnified by a hard line religious faction determined at all costs to build a greater Israel without any Palestinians in it. The most troubling aspect is that after the recent attack on Gaza Israel began telling itself it had no choice and not confronting the fact that it’s own conscript army has just killed 1400 civilians. If ever there was a tragic end to self delusion, this is it. You can kill people but not kill them.

And Israel’s pre 1967 borders were 9 miles wide at their thinnest point. That’s a third of London! This was an incredibly vulnerable position to be in against neighbours intent on destroying it, and is precisely why Israel will never return to those ridiculous borders.

But it’s neighbours aren’t able or intent on destroying it anymore, and those that wish it harm could be nullified (as this article points out) by negotiation, something that’s never seriously been tried since the deal with Egypt. You call these borders ridiculous, but only only because Israel wants it to be. That’s the land available. Live within it peacefully. Do you think Palestinians feel less vulnerable with no borders at all except tanks and walls?

So is Israel insecure? Yes. I hope you understand why. There has not been a systematic attempt to destroy the Palestinians – believe me, if there had, Israel would have been successful – there hasn’t been a systematic attempt to destroy many.

Yes, I understand, but that doesn’t mean it’s ok because it’s still largely false. There has not been a systematic attempt to destroy Palestinians, although it seems sometimes the Israeli’s expect people to celebrate this as an expression of kindness. Just because you could have killed everyone in the house but left 2 family members alive isn’t kindness. What there is is a totally careless attitude to non Israeli lives.

And what there has been is a systematic attempt to take land. As much and as fast as they think they can get away with without the Americans getting too upset. If that means bulldozing houses and killing people then so be it.

So maybe the first step has to be a complete acceptance by all Arab and Muslim states of Israel’s right to exist. Once we have that, perhaps Israel can make some land concessions.

You still require expressions of intent from one side before making any of your own. There is no evidence that Palestinians promising to preserve Israel will result in the slightest concession from Israel. The West Bank has not seen a single rocket launch in I can’t remember how long, yet the noose only tightens as the settlement expansion continues despite all the words. Walls, checkpoints, and road blocks are the reality. Just because it’s much worse in Gaza doesn’t make this good or the IDF not an army of oppression.

It seems clear from your otherwise reasonably worded post that you have no intention of expecting Israeli withdrawal to the 1967 borders and intend to preserve as much of the settlements as possible, which is broadly in line with the Israeli government. Ok, but please don’t hide behind the mask of “security” to explain a land grab justified by a religious fiction, one that has lost Israel it’s humanity in order to claim a few handfuls of dirt.

WhatRecession

11 Jan 2010, 1:39PM

Israel has been doing what it does for quite a while now. I think if you’re commenting on the unfairness of this or the fact that Israel doesnt get pulled up by the international community via sanctions for instance then you are wasting your time.

Israel does these things and the price they seem willing to pay is the occasional suicide attack (which further and further decrease the longer the wall gets) and occasional rocket attacks (which are met with aggressive tactics using fighter jets and gunships). Israel does these things with the backing of most Western powers under the banner of its right to defend itself. This is how it is.

Europe has deemed East Jerusalem to be the Palestinian capital. This is where those who have Palestinian interests at heart should look to. Legitimise Palestine, look to force through repair and redevelopment of its infrastructure. The border as defined by the wall isnt going to change but there is a chance through economic investment to build on what currently exists in Gaza and the West Bank on the Palestinian side of the wall. If a Palestinian school is paid for with Western investment, Hamas arent going to refuse it just because nothing is being done about illegal settlements. Islamic factions will continue to attack the border created by Israel but the popularity of this will dwindle eventually. Plus i suspect these factions will bow to the will of Hamas ie they only get to operate on their say so and it is Hamas after all who control the tunnels where the factions are able to bring through arms. As for how measured Israel’s response to attack is met once Westerners are financing the buildings in their sights is anyone’s guess.

ThePrompter

11 Jan 2010, 2:50PM

itsikdewembley –

“Training up terrorists and supporting them is not something USA does with respect to Israeli relations.”

It depends on how you define ‘terrorists’. No matter which side you’re on, the ‘terrorist’ is always on the other side. So from the point of view of the Lebanese and the Palestinians, the IDF are ‘terrorists’, and the USA are involved with their funding and training.

Any armed group intent on killing you is likely to instil a bit of terror in most people.

thesilentmajority

11 Jan 2010, 1:17PM

Furthermore why is hamas branded as terrorists and not the israeli govt/army

look at the pre-conditions they want them to agree too

1) recognise israel- when has israel ever recognise a fully sovereign palestine state

2) denounce arm resistence- i didnt knw israel was going to give up its nukes, tanks, and continuing bombing by air force

3) agree to past agreements- Hamas av already said it willingness to a two-state solution. Whta has israel done to meet the agreement- since 1993 settlements av double

Of course the more the Western bon ton ‘progressives’ from all walks of life manage to convince themselves that the one and only problem in the Middle East is Israel, the more distant any kind of way out of the present problems is likely to become. At the same time, this mode of facile thinking is exactly what is putting the West itself in danger from extremists who have more in their sights than a few settlements, but comprehending that demands a level of thinking of which so much of the Left sadly no longer appears to be capable.

45 replies »

  1. Klug ough to keep his mouth shut in order not to reveal his gross ignorance of Iran.

    Iran has never been a democracy – not even under Mossadeq, who was not above violence to intimidate opponents.

    Solving the Israeli-Palestinian dispute, while desirable in itself, will do nothing to enhance the prospects for peaceful economic and political development in the Arab and Muslim worlds. Their problems are internal, not external.

    Klug does, however, use an anti-Semitic technique first noticed by Paul Johnson, who remarked that it is often hard to tell fear orf anti-Semitism from anti-Semitism per se. The usual formulation is, “Jews should not defend themselves, because that would provoke anti-Semitism.” Or, “Jews should not express themselves, because that would provoke anti-Semitism.” Or, “Jews should keep a low profile and not allow their success to be seen, because that would provoke anti-Semitism.”

    Thus Klug, ” If the attack were to be launched by Israel … I fear the global unpopularity of Jews, already ominously on the rise, will reach new heights.”

  2. Incidentally, several major Arab countries have privately indicated they would be delighted if Israel squashed Iranian imperialism.

    Iran has been fueling not only the Israeli-Palestinian dispute but Yemeni rebels as well, with the ultimate goal of establishing hegemony over the Muslim world.

    One might even consider that Iran has already been waging war against Israel from 3 sides (by training and/or supplying proxies in Lebanon, Gaza, and the West bank) as well as against the govenments of Yemen and Saudi Arabia.

    Egypt, too, is wise to the Iranians. It arrested a batch of Iranian militiamen trying to enter Gaza to direct the war there.

  3. ” If the attack were to be launched by Israel … I fear the global unpopularity of Jews, already ominously on the rise, will reach new heights.”

    Ironically, hardly among the Arabs, except out of habit.

  4. The Klug Song (To the tune of “Busy Bee”. hat tip: Arthur Askey)

    What a notorious thing to be,
    A busy busy bee at IJV,
    The views of Tony and Brian Klug,
    Just make all true free thinkers shrug.

    Chorus: Buzz buzz buzz buzz, busy Klugs, busy Klugs,
    Buzz if you like but you’re only bugs,
    Buzz buzz buzz buzz, buzy Klugs, busy Klugs
    Buzz if you like but you’re swattable bugs.

  5. I see CIF contributor “Cllr Terry Kelly” has shown his true colours with this incredible comment on his own blog.

    http://councillorterrykelly.blogspot.com/2009/12/read-labels-dont-buy-israeli-goods.html

    “Don’t buy Israeli goods; don’t have dealings with Israel; don’t visit the place; ban sporting contacts with them; shun them for the vile racists they are; force them through an economic blockade to do the decent thing. Force them to act as they once did; when their treatment under the Nazis won them the respect and affection of most of the world”

    He actually is a real elected councillor -not for the BNP- but the Labour Party! Truly the country has gone mad.

  6. Israelinurse

    I can’t for the life of me think why, but you missed out this supportive comment from ThomasWhitmore @ 11 Jan 2010, 1:45PM

    “What an authoritive, well reasoned piece, Tony Klug – excellent. This is a highly refreshing read. This is the kind of enlightened attitude to life on this planet that we sorely need!

    I doubt however, that Israel will go beyond sabre rattling here (could the IG be that stupid?) – and doubt even more that the US under Obama will go any where near offering support for such insanity. Unfortunately – and it is a big unfortunately, born out by nearly 62 years of history – the State of Israel is relentlessly intent on taking as much land as possible with as few Palestinians on it as possible.

    Personally, I see the One State solution gradually becoming more and more credible – ultimately, Zionism will be shown to be its own worst enemy.

    Keep up the good work, Tony – and I’m now off to take a look at Palestine-Israel Journal mentioned in the credits.”

    http://www.pij.org/about.php

    “The Palestine-Israel Journal is a non-profit organization, founded in 1994 by Ziad AbuZayyad and Victor Cygielman, two prominent Palestinian and Israeli journalists, and was established concurrently with the first phases of the Oslo peace process to encourage dialogue between civil societies on both sides and broaden the base of support for the peace process. It was obvious from the start that, alongside the institutional efforts of Palestinians and Israelis, channels of communication must be opened for academics and other intellectuals, opinion and policy makers, grassroots organizations and activists to voice their views and take part in the public debate for a democratic and just solution to the conflict.”

  7. Reza Khan

    “Iran has been fueling not only the Israeli-Palestinian dispute ”

    Theres me thinking the occasional extra settlement .. blockade..or occasional rocket ..was to blame. And all the time it was those folk thousands of miles away, weaving their plots on their magic carpets.

  8. Apologies for off-topic and cross posting:

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    Please remember to donate via the “general” option.

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    then you can donate online in a secure way. All money that is being
    donated to general funds is being allocated to Haiti.”

    PLEASE PASS THIS ON

  9. The defining feature of Tony Klug is that he is an utter mediocrity, with too much time and money on his hands, who wants to be a somebody.
    Likewise his prattish brother, Brian.

    The Klug family were in property, mega big time, in the sixties, and so their offspring do not have to concern themselves with the tiresome chore of having to earn a living. Brian likes to shuffle around like an impoverished academic.
    He is neither poor, nor academic.

    How better for a Jew without talent to make a name for himself by attacking Israel in the public forum, and that is something that Klug inc. latched onto smartly.

    I have never heard or read a single word of theirs, spoken or written, that has any depth or originality.
    Brian has acquired all the little mannerisms of the English gentry, and his craven posturings are a guaranteed turn off in the society in which he is so anxious to be accepted.

  10. Thanks Tosca.

    The Klug Song (To the tune of “Busy Bee”. hat tip: Arthur Askey)
    [second draft with bridge]

    What a notorious thing to be,
    A busy busy bee at IJV,
    The views of Tony and Brian Klug,
    Just make all true free thinkers shrug.

    Bridge: Humungus queen Francesca Klug
    Keeps digging in the hole that the Klugs have dug.
    When Tony and Brian buzz off home for tea,
    She swallows them up with her hyper-bo-le.

    Chorus: Buzz buzz buzz buzz, busy Klugs, busy Klugs,
    Buzz if you like but you’re only bugs,
    Buzz buzz buzz buzz, busy Klugs, busy Klugs
    Buzz if you like but you’re swattable bugs.

  11. Tosca

    “How better for a Jew without talent to make a name for himself by attacking Israel in the public forum”

    He could try coming to CIFwatch like the rest! 🙂

  12. Klud is an idiot:

    ‘What, one may ask, is the point of Israel possessing a nuclear deterrent, albeit never officially admitted, if not to face down a potential nuclear threat?’

    It’s original purpose was to deter eliminationist conventional threats.

    Iran can survive a nuclear exchange, Israel can’t. Iran is big, Israel is little.

    And Iran’s annihilationist discourse and nuclear shadow looms over Israel’s future citizens in a way Israel’s never has on her neighbours’. Israel’s neighbours know how aggressive they have been or are towards Israeli or Palestinian Jews. And they know that, if they behave, they will be left alone.

    Iran’s annihilationist and nuclear ambitions encourages the more or most extreme elements in Hamas and Hizbullah, and make peace an even more distant prospect, since Israel is not going to sign anything without secure borders.

    Klug is a silly English gentleman who regularly shoots his mouth off about that he knows nothing.

  13. If Klug thinks a nuclear Iran is so tolerable, why not move to Israel? If makes a heck of a difference if you live under an annihilationist nuclear shadow.

    We are cursed with gentrified bien pissants like Klug.

  14. Zkharya.

    No. Klug is NOT a silly, English gentleman.

    Rather, he is a nasty, dissembling malcontent.

    The Klugs would like Israel to dissappear.
    Brian Klug proposed the motion ” Zionism is a danger to the Jewish people” in the Cambridge Union some years ago, in which he said that Israel was an embarrassment to British Jews, ie. to himself.

    They don’t say that Israel should disappear, rather prescribe solutions for “peace”, knowing that such courses of action would guarantee its demise.

    Creepy and crappy would sum them up nicely.

  15. Thanks IN

    “…..The spokesman for Hamas in the Palestinian parliament, Salah al-Bardawil, told Haaretz, “we will not agree to recognition of Israel or peace with it [as it appears in the initiative]. We have no problem with the part of the initiative that calls for the establishment of a Palestinian state on the 1967 borders and the right of refugees to return.”…..”

    The reason Hamas is inflexible is because of their underling philosophy as the Palestinian franchise of the Muslim Brotherhood. Hamas would cease to be Hamas if they recognized Israel (as a Jewish state) because Palestine is Islamic Holy Land just as it states in their charter. It then follows that the dispossessed Palestinians must return to their homes in “Palestine”. These issues will not go away as long as Hamas is functional.

    The acceptance of a Palestinian state is only temporary, and a pragmatic choice to settle for part of Palestine now, but the war will continue until all of Palestine becomes one again.

  16. zkharya

    ” Iran’s annihilationist…ambitions encourages the more or most extreme elements in Hamas ”

    What feckin tosh …as if the Palestinians need to be led from afar. It couldnt be the crushingly brutal IDF that has caused the problem so it must be folk thousands of miles away.

  17. TW-

    Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner. If the I/P conflict was simply a political dispute, peace, though difficult, could be a possibility. However, when a religious imperative that requires that any land that had been under the dominion of Islam can never be ruled by anyone other than Muslims, peace is not fathomable. Unfortunately, Islam itself will never reform itself, i.e., remove its jihadist and imperialist goals, so the only possibility is that somehow Hamas is no longer in power, and the Palestinian Authority, or some other body that the Palestinians decide on, though comprised primarily of Muslims, is not Islamist in its outlook, and so is able to engage from a political, non-religious perspective, and in so doing can reach a modus vivendi with Israel. Peace with Hamas ruled Palestine is not possible, unless the Israelis are willing to agree to hudna, which is a temporary truce. Won’t happen.

  18. Terry

    Thanks. I agree with what you said. Understandably, Israel doesn’t want to deal with Hamas for those reasons.

    Unfortunately, the Europeans are hell-bent on “moderating” Hamas. The Europeans want to believe that Hamas is just “bargaining” with Israel to acquire as many concessions as possible, that they will be content with the ’67 boundaries of a Palestinian state. In the same respect, Hamas is just trying to concede enough to gain international recognition (without giving away their true aspirations) – and apply pressure on the PA and Israel.

  19. zkharya: “bien pissants like Klug” — just saw this now, thank you, I feel much better now!!! Well put, no doubt.

  20. sababa

    Israelinurse, your restraint writing about Klug’s brainless nonsense is admirable.

    Well, you should see the hate-fuelled comments she comes up with elsewhere on this site …

  21. pretzelberg,

    You are getting beyond yourself, again.

    Please, prove that Israelinurse has made “hate fuelled comments” elsewhere on this site.

    That’s a bit of an accusation, so come on, prove it or shut up.

  22. modernityblog

    That’s a bit of an accusation …

    So where were you when there was talk here of “%*§! goyim”?

    Far, far more heinous, would you not agree?

    Seems like you are guilty of double standards …

  23. pretzel, I’m a veteran fan of Israelinurse and am pretty sure that I’ve read everything she has ever published as Israelinurse — haven’t yet seen anything hate-filled. Indeed, I can tell you that considering some of the things she has experienced both in her job and as a mother, I could imagine that in her place, I would have some rather strong sentiments. But hey, what would a pretzel living the comfy life in Berlin and occasionally floating in the Dead Sea know about how it feels to tend to the leftovers of people after a suicide bombing, or to know your sons coming home for the weekend barely escaped a gruesome death?
    You just carry on preaching and hair-splitting, pretzel, and maybe complain about a comma missing here or there — that’s what YOU are good at, and maybe for…

  24. pretzelberg,

    So you can’t provide any evidence, for your inflammatory remarks.

    You can’t provide any evidence of Israelinurse’s supposed “hate-fuelled comments”?

    You should put up or shut up.

    Try to learn how to use cut and paste and go on, provide the evidence, backup your wild assertions, go on

    IF you can.

  25. @ modernityblog

    This website is ineed awash with such inflammatory remarks.

    A sad reflection on said site.

  26. pretzelberg,

    Exactly.

    You make wild assertions but when you are picked up on them, you can’t provide the evidence.

    You made a very specific point:

    “Well, you should see the hate-fuelled comments she [Israelinurse] comes up with elsewhere on this site”

    Yet you provide no evidence, only assertion.

  27. sababa

    “pretty sure that I’ve read everything she has ever published as Israelinurse — haven’t yet seen anything hate-filled”

    Ask her about posting on CIF …ask her about eugenics.

  28. Pretzelberg – If you are going to toss around wild accusations, you really should have examples to hand. Likewise Abandon. Otherwise you will find yourself having to make embarassing apologies and subsequently looking rather ridiculous.
    Of course, in your particular political milieu there is nothing novel about leaping to silly conclusions or throwing around baseless accusations either in the macro or the micro; in fact it’s quite a tactic of choice, (e.g. Jenin, Al Dura, Kana etc.) but that doesn’t make it any less reprehensible.
    If all you can come up with to try to discredit Israel and/or Israelis are a bunch of fabrications, it is highly indicative of both the poverty of your political position and your personal lack of self-respect, for which you have my condolences.

  29. @ modernityblog

    Before I even listen to you, you will need to retract certain hate-fuelled comments you yourself made to me.

    And again: I take it you’re OK with people here cursing others as “%*§! goyim”?

    @ Israelinurse

    You know full well the comments you have made previously and that I will not have to make “embarassing apologies”.

    And what is my “particular political milieu”?

    Would that involve “baseless accusations” about e.g. “Jenin, Al Dura, Kana”?

    You seem to be confusing me with somebody else there!

    And I allegedly “try to discredit Israel” with “a bunch of fabrications”?

    Wrong again, I’m afraid.

    It seems that you tar anyone who dares to challenge the CifWatch world view with the same brush. And that is where we find you “subsequently looking rather ridiculous”.

  30. pretzelberg,

    I do wonder when you are going to grow up?

    You are incredibly, extraordinary, sensitive about any comment made to **you**.

    But then you will happily dish it out and make wild accusations against Israelinurse, showing a complete lack of sensitivity towards **others**.

    You can’t provide any evidence, because it doesn’t exist.

    Yet your personal insecurities won’t allow you to admit that you made a mistake with the accusation against Israelinurse.

    As I said, you should grow up and make an effort to act like an adult, otherwise people will treat you as a child.

    It is worthwhile pondering that latter point.

  31. @ modernityblog

    So it seems you are indeed OK with people here cursing others as “%*§! goyim” …

    And your twice urging me twice to “grow up” only shows how pathetic you are.

  32. pretzelberg,

    again, you are avoiding the point

    You wrote:

    “Well, you should see the hate-fuelled comments she [Israelinurse] comes up with elsewhere on this site”

    And still no factual evidence from you?

    I am not sure that anyone has explained it to you, but merely because you say something doesn’t make it true.

    Amongst adults, amongst mature people arguments are substantiated with evidence of reason, and pretzelberg, you haven’t managed to do that in this case.

    Please do try harder, or admit your error.

  33. @ modernityblog

    “Amongst adults, amongst mature people arguments are substantiated with evidence of reason”

    Most mature people condemn racial epithets. Sorry to see you’re not among them.

    Get out of my face, you racist.

  34. Israelinurse

    ” you will find yourself having to make embarassing apologies and subsequently looking rather ridiculous. ”

    I admit that I post on CIF under another name. Do you? If so.. can I ask who? The reason I ask is that there is a poster that continually stresses the importance of removing Muslim males from Israel. Now if it is not you I will apologise.

  35. Abandon – I do not post on CiF at all under any name whatsoever. The fact that you ‘think’ you know something and then toss out a wild accusation with no basis to it without checking your facts is both telling and regrettable. Neither, Pretzelburg, do I ever use the word ‘goyim’, for reasons of my own – no wonder you cannot find evidence of your smear.
    Line up and apologise boys.

  36. Now the funny thing is, the reason I asked the question above about evidence is fairly simple.

    I have been reading Israelinurse’s comments for over a year, may be longer, I forget and the one thing that I can’t remember is, any particularly pointed or offensive comments from her.

    I do make offensive remarks myself, I am fairly rude, occasionally, but reading her writings (and I confess I enjoy them), I didn’t see any snide comments or back-end remarks amongst them.

    I might have missed them, but I doubt it, on balance she is considerably politer (as far as I know) than most blokes who comment on these topics.

    So I am glad even with the aid of Google that no particularly offensive remarks were found.

  37. “Well, you should see the hate-fuelled comments she [Israelinurse] comes up with elsewhere on this site”

    This accusation is not true – but 15 centuries of anti-Semitic brutaity, bloodletting, subjugation, discrimination, expulsions, progroms, and murder give the Jews ample reason to hate remorseless Christians and Muslims.

  38. Israelinurse has, to my knowledge, never said anything that could be construed – even by the most determined – to be ‘hate-fuelled’. It is not her style.

  39. Pretzelberg and Abandon

    I’ve never commented on this site before, although I visit it regularly. When I come on I am particularly interested in reading articles written by Israelinurse.

    I have been motivated to write today, by the vile, and lying accusations against her posted by yourselves.

    As the lady says, she has (several) very personal reasons for never using the word ‘goyim’. I happen to know what they are, because I’m her sister.

    Enough to say that not all people who start life under one religion stay with that religion for the duration. And similarly, not all people of a particular religion marry people of the same religion.

    In our much loved extended family we both thoroughly enjoy an eclectic mix of 4 different racial groups and three religions.

    I can categorically tell you right now in the 50 years I have been her sister, I have never heard her call anyone a ‘Goy’, or use the word ‘goyim’ even in her casual verbal discourse, except when quoting what others have said.

    We both await your apologies.