General Antisemitism

Israel boots Wagner: Harriet Sherwood chides state for uniting behind its Holocaust survivors


A guest post by Gidon Ben-Zvi, an Anglo-Israeli writer who blogs at Jerusalem State of Mind.

German Composer Richard Wagner

On Tuesday June 5th, the Guardian’s Jerusalem correspondent Harriet Sherwood reported that Tel Aviv University had denied the request of the Israel Wagner Society to have an Israeli symphony orchestra perform works by Hitler’s favorite composer Richard Wagner (Tel Aviv Wagner concert cancelled after wave of protest).

The university announced that it would not permit a scheduled Wagner concert to take place on its campus after vehement public protests.

Tel Aviv University accused Yonathan Livni – the founder of the Israel Wagner Society – of deliberately concealing the intention to perform Wagner compositions. The university also claimed that Livni did not mention the name of the organization he represented.

 Ms. Sherwood’s reporting of this story is riddled with subtle distortions and logical fallacies which should be examined.

First off, Ms. Sherwood repeatedly used the term ‘boycott’ without further elucidation. The ‘boycott’ is not official and in fact the Israeli Supreme Court ruled in 2000 that it is not illegal to play Wagner in Israel. Rather, the ban is merely a custom that goes back to the founding of the Jewish state.

Next, she refers to this “unofficial boycott” of Wagner and draws an elegant parallel between it and the BDS Israel campaign which, after all, also has the word ‘boycott’ in it. Specifically, Sherwood quotes Mr. Livni, who responded to Tel Aviv University’s decision thus:

“The issue is that here is an academic institution that is threatened daily with boycotts because of Israel’s policy in the occupied territories doing exactly the same thing: imposing a boycott.”

Ralph Waldo Emerson once wrote the following:

“A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.”

While the BDS Israel movement seeks to purge Israel, both inside and outside of the ‘Green Line’, of every last vestige of Jewish character and sovereignty, Israel’s unofficial Wagner ban serves as a crucial reminder that ideas have consequences — and that those who spread evil ideas should be held responsible for their consequences.

And this dovetails into Ms Sherwood’s next logical evasion.

The tired “divide man from his art” cliché’ is invoked in this quote, once again courtesy of Mr. Livni:

I have no regard for the composer – he was the worst kind of anti-Semite and I despise him. But God gave him a wonderful gift with which he wrote this beautiful, sublime music.

Simply put, none of this is about Wagner’s music. Rather, it’s about the strength and corrosive influence of his ideas. While Richard Wagner lived decades before the birth of Nazism, his influence on the National Socialist movement and especially on its leader was enormous.

In Mein Kampf, Hitler wrote that Wagner was one of “the great warriors in this world who, though not understood by the present, was nevertheless prepared to carry the fight for their ideas and ideals to their end.”

Wagner’s music was prominently featured at Nazi Party functions. And the operatic festival that he founded at Bayreuth in 1876 became a citadel of racism and reaction, and the cultural showpiece of the Third Reich and Hitler’s artistic centre.

Upon coming to power in 1933, Wagner’s works were used by the Nazi regime as part of its plan to ‘Nazify’ German culture.

In some Nazi concentration camps prescribed music was forced on the inmates by way of radio or gramophones that played over permanently installed loudspeakers.

The music, which included the works of Richard Wagner, was used along with propaganda speeches in order to re-educate the inmates. As such, the argument can be made the Wagner’s music served as soundtrack to many who lived through, and died during, the Holocaust.

Later in the article Ms Sherwood once again cites the eminently quotable Mr. Livni:

It was hypocritical of Israelis to boycott Wagner but ride on German-built trains and drive German-made cars, and for the state to buy German submarines…

The Reparations Agreement between Israel and West Germany  was signed in 1952 in order to:

“…address the calling for moral and material indemnity … The Federal Government are prepared, jointly with representatives of Jewry and the State of Israel … to bring about a solution of the material indemnity problem, thus easing the way to the spiritual settlement of infinite suffering.”

Although public debate in Israel was among the fiercest in the nation’s history, the aim of the reparations was undeniably to address and perhaps begin to come to terms with one of the great human tragedies ever known. While a blunt and highly controversial tool, reparations that sought to seek a smidge of redemption for an irredeemable act of cruelty were guided by a higher moral imperative.

What does this have to do with Wagner being performed in Israel?

Those who advocate for Wagner compositions being performed in the Jewish State usually rely on the ‘Art for Art’s Sake’ argument.  Whether or not one concurs, this focus on the aesthetically pleasing attributes of Wagner’s works is devoid of any appeal to redemption, forgiveness or spiritual healing.

By politicizing history in order to bludgeon Israel into illegitimacy, Ms. Sherwood does a disservice to the discipline, whose purpose is “…to reconstruct the past as accurately as the intelligence of the historian and the fullness of the historical sources permit…”

90 replies »

  1. As I commented when this story was discussed on Norman Lebrecht’s ‘Slipped Disc’ blog, I wish those musicians who agitate for the music of Wagner to be played in Israel would devote no less energy to performing the music of those composers who were murdered by the Wagner-loving Nazis – Schulhoff, Ullman, Pavel Haas, Gideon Klein, Leo Smit, Marcel Tyberg, Ilse Weber …..

    • Boycotting Wagner’s music because Hitler loved his music is nonsensical. Theodore Herzl loved Wagner’s music too. Not to mention that Wagner was dead by the time Hitler was born.

      I’m surprised to see that Mr. Levick changed his mind and now supports cultural boycotts.

      • Your comment is simply facetious, Nat. A refusal to play a particular (dead) composer’s music because of the political, historical and (to survivors of the camps) personal impact it would have is so vastly different to a boycott of living artists as to bear no comparison at all. To indulge you, however, I will spell out one aspect of the contrast.

        As far as I am aware, orchestras are not banned from playing in Israel if they have ever played Wagner. They are simply asked not to do so in Israel. That is not a boycott – it’s a simple matter of cultural sensitivity.

        By way of contrast, the BDS crowd wish to persuade us that any company that does business with Israel or deigns to sell Israeli goods is worthy of castigation and scorn.

        • Well if some Israelis say that Wagner should be boycotted because it brings back the memories of Nazi Germany, why are you surprised that some people in European countries would say they want Israeli musicians to be boycotted because it brings back memories of the Naqba ?

          Any cultural boycott is dumb.

          • Nat – let me explain further. What is the AIM of a “boycott” of Wagner’s music – IN ISRAEL. It is simply to avoid the terrible offence many there would feel in hearing his music, so celebrated by and associated with the Nazis. Is its purpose to harm anyone in particular? No.

            What is the AIM of the anti-Israel BDS crowd who advocate a cultural boycott? The marginalisation, deligitimisation and (as they have admitted) the eventual destruction of a sovereign state. Who does it aim to HARM? Any orchestra, actor, playwright, poet, novellist, artist etc who dares to perform/write/ in Israel and any theatre/university/gallery/shop who dare to give said artists a platform for their work.

            See a difference yet?

          • Nat, the Naqba is a day of celebration, not a memory to be avoided. It is also a crock of s__t. The Naqba is a stupid lesson taught to Arab School Children and, otherwise, to gullible people with no grounding in history– Why? Because Arab children are taught to believe that you can start a war of annihilation against someone, loose this war, and then cry and whine about it for decades. That’s not a healthy lesson of what constitutes good human behavior. This is analogous to the Germans having a public day to mourn the loss of WWII. However, no one would take the Germans seriously in such a circumstances. Why the “Naqba”? it is just a propaganda tool with which to delegitimize Israel.

    • If I follow Mr. Levick’s logic, German Shepherds should be banned from Israel. They were the favourite dogs of Nazi soldiers guarding the concentration camps during the Holocaust. Should we ban Germnan shepherds from Israel too? Or maybe all dogs since Hitler is reported to have been fond of them?

      Let’s be serious one minute.

      • The reason for the ban isn’t Wagner’s music, it’s the vileness of his ideas, which were a major influence on a young Hitler. To compare the ban on Wagner’s compositions to German Shepherds is to miss the point. That is, unless your contention is that German Shepherds had a profound influence on Hitler and, later on, the National Socialist party. Thanks for reading and responding to my piece!

      • Nat,
        Mr. Levick didn’t write the article, and the absurd, unsound logic that you attribute to him is clearly only your own.
        Are you really comparing a breed of dog to a Jew-baiting composer and his ideological, mass-murdering heir?
        Nat, I’m not sure you know this, but German Shepherds are not actually Germans, and they don’t have an ideology.
        And you stand there, in your clown costume, and say “Let’s be serious one minute?”

    • If Ben-Zvi had some intelligence, he would realize that nothing can be more of a defeat to Hitler than having Jewish musicians play Wagner’s music in the Jewish state. Sadly, intelligence is a rare gift.

  2. The Wagner boycott is the boycott of a man for what he did. Most anti-Israel boycotts is to do with were thay are from and often which ethnicity.

    • Boycotts are dumb. It would have been far more intelligent to ask the people in charge of the Wagner concert to invite an Israeli historian to speak on Wagner’s life and on how Hitler misused his music to fuel his genocidal regime.

  3. Those participating in the BDS movement want to support the playing of Wagner for the same reasons that they want to boycott Israel: like wagner they hate Jews.

    Wagner would have been a proud member of the BDS movement.

    • Those participating in the BDS movement … hate Jews.

      All of them? What a presposterous thing to say.

      Gets a massive thumbs-up BTL here, of course. Pathetic.

  4. Is she a bitch, an idiot or both? Next she’ll demand israel exhibits hitler’s paintings using the same logic.

    • When she is google Cifwatch is the fourth link!! Good work exposing her Marxist propaganda.

      • “Marxist propaganda”? Hilarious!

        Anyway, you seem to have a juvenile approach to adult women.

    • Mtzoh, what did Wagner do? He weas dead by the time Hitler was born.

      Your comment is not only misinformed, it is also nonsensical.

      Herzl loved Wagner’s music.

    • Steve, she’s neither a bitch nor an idiot, she’s a journalist and the foreign correspondent of the UK’s most influential newspaper.

      • Nat where do you get the idea that The Guardian is the “UK’s most influential newspaper”?

        The ABC circulation figures for April 2012 along with year on year changes are;
        Daily Mirror 1,084,355 ; -7.54
        Daily Record 281,584 ; -9.91
        Daily Star 611,081 ; -11.71
        The Sun 2,624,008 ; -5.72
        Daily Express 568,628 ; -10.53
        Daily Mail 1,991,275 ; -5.19
        The Daily Telegraph 576,790 ; -9.82
        Financial Times 305,685 ; -17.84
        The Herald 45,178 ; -9.22
        The Guardian 214,128 ; -18.86
        i 271,648 ; 68.57
        The Independent 98,636 ; -45.43
        The Scotsman 36,287 ; -10.46
        The Times 393,187 ; -12.59
        Racing Post 53,274 ; -7.15

        Leaving one side the figures for The Independent because the ‘i’ is a compact and cheaper version of it. You can see that there are a number of newspapers that sell more, you can also see that the biggest decline in figures year on year is The Guardian

        Online the MailOnline has more hits than The Guardian Online

        • The Guardian is the main source of information in British diplomatic and journalistic circles. It is read by decision-makers.

          • “The Guardian is the main source of information in British diplomatic and journalistic circles. It is read by decision-makers.”

            Nat how do you know that The Guardian is what you claim? What is the factual basis for your bizarre claim?

          • “The Guardian is the main source of information in British diplomatic and journalistic circles. It is read by decision-makers.”
            Good then. We now have a source for all those bad decisions. Garbage in, garbage out.

        • It’s not about the newspaper that sells the most, it’s about the newspaper that is read by decision-makers. Such is the case of the Guardian, which makes it the most influential newspaper in Britain, despite being classified as “liberal”. TV and radio news editors read the Guardian every day before deciding which issue they will report in their own world news sections. This is the second reaosn why the newspaper is so influential.

          • Nat , please don’t re-hash the same claim as yesterday. What exactly is your source for this claim?

            What makes you think that ‘decision-makers’ , whoever they maybe, and TV and Radio news editors do not read the other papers as well?

            Do you think there is a law in the UK that you are only allowed to read one newspaper?

      • She is not “the” foreign correspondent, merely one of many. And to state as fact that the Guardian is “the UK’s most influential newspaper” is simply bizarre.

        You sound rather like you have a (shall we say) over-developed affection for her and the organ she is paid by. Perhaps this is why you continually defend her.

        (although I agree that the use of the words “bitch” and “idiot” are neither helpful nor tasteful).

  5. Contrast Sherwood’s screed with the article in the Independent on the same subject. I was pleasantly surprised by its neutral tone.

    The talkbacks on the other hand… on the same level as the Guardian’s CiF. I tried to battle the online demons but I fear with not much success. Other pro-Israel posters were lamentably lacking yesterday.

  6. How can anyone in their right mind lambaste taxpayer supported Israeli institutions for not wanting to support the works of a virulent jew-hater such as Richard Wagner? One only needs to read Wagner’s “Das Judentum in der Musik” to see why any jewish institution has a perfect right to decide not to support performances of Wagner’s works. There’s no strict walling off of his attitudes and his art.
    If someone wants to privately finance a performance of Wagner, then that’s their business.
    Ms. Sherwood has bad drug habit. Perhaps she should return to London to recuperate. While there, she could write a piece criticizing Howard University for not whistling Dixie.

  7. Continuing on the obvious, the reason Israeli’s buy German cars is because the current Germans, unlike Wagner, have not publicly spewed Jew-hatred.

  8. ” Ms. Sherwood’s reporting of this story is riddled with subtle distortions”

    Sherwood simply presents the facts about the banning, together with some background information, and quotes from key people on both sides of the argument. She interviews Livni because he organised the concert and is the principal victim of the ban. She also quotes from Uri Chanoch, deputy chairman of the Holocaust Survivors’ Centre, who gives the opposing argument.

    In case CifWatchers have difficulty in distinguishing a journalist’s views from the thoughts of those involved in the story, I can inform them that the latter are usually put in quotation marks, as is the case in Sherwood’s account.

    • On this occassion, I generally have to agree with sencar. I think Sherwood herself presents a fairly balanced view of the issues, with two possible exceptions:

      1. She does give greater prominence to Livni’s views – he is quoted far more extensively than anyone else (and gets the important last word).

      2. There could be some criticism that the very choice by Sherwood to write about this dispute (and by the Guardian to publish it) rather than to report on any number of positive cultural events displays an agenda. However, I personally think that it is a newsworthy story.

      So on balance I am not sure criticism of Sherwood is valid in this case.

    • The issue isn’t Ms. Sherwood’s presentation of the facts since all the essentials of the story are included in the piece. Rather, her article is but a small, sad example of a greather phenomenon – that of politicizing history. The Wagner piece stands on its own as newsworthy and doesn’t require references to the “Occupation”, “Divestment” and “boycotts”. By drawing in these hot button issues into an article that actually has much more of a cultural, historical and sociologial relevance than a poltical one, all Ms Sherwood’s doing is succumbing to her own, well-known biases regarding Israel. Thank you for reading my essay and providing feedback to it!

      • In case you hadn’t noticed, it was Livni who brought in the wider issues, Sherwood just reported what he said.

        • True. However, Ms Sherwood, like all reporters, used editorial discretion in including these specific Livni quotes. Furthermore, as was mentioned in a previous comment, precious little ink was dedicated to the Holocaust survivors’ point of view while Livni’s dominated the story. Not what I would call unbiased, balanced, objective reporting.

  9. Jews are asked not to perform Wagner’s music. There has never been a ban on Jews listening to it. I personally do not think Jews should perform his works but Jews can decide for themselves if in listening to his works whether they have artistic merit. Anti-Semitism is part and parcel of the legacy of Western culture and there is no point to ever completely exorcising its ghost.

  10. Whatever Sherwood wrote fails to address the issue of the ban on playing Wagner’s music in Israel because it might hurt the feelings of Holocaust survivors and their relatives. Tel-Aviv University’s excuses are unconvincing- the programme content of the concert was known well in advance, publicised in the press and funded privately. As with all performances, if one doesn’t want to attend them, one is not obliged to buy a ticket. I think it a great imposition to continue to deny the Israeli public the opportunity to hear Wagner’s works in a live concert. Yes, Wagner was a died-in-the wool antisemite, philanderer, debtor and ingrate. His music, however, represents innovation and vision at that time in the mid-19th century and no serious study of music can deny his importance. Other great composers, Rachmaninov, Orff, Chopin among them, were antisemitic but I have yet to hear about anyone trying to ban playing their works. This Wagner ban isn’t boycott; it’s censorship.

    • The Israeli custom, and that’s all it is since it is in no way illegal for Wagner to be performed in Israel, cannot accurately be defined as censorship in the commonly used sense of the term. Censorship is the suppression of speech or other public communication which may be considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, or inconvenient as determined by a government, media outlet, or other controlling body. There is no governmental coercion or judicial fiat vis a vis the ban on Wagner in Israel. Rather, it’s one country showing solidarity with its Holocaust survivors and the unspeakable horrors they experienced no too long ago. Thank you for reading and replying to my piece!

      • When Daniel Barenboim decided that it was time for Israelies to listen to Wagner, he “bullied” the subscribers who had gone to listen to him in Jerusalem in the name of music bias ignoring the sensitivities of the Jewish audience and the instruction of the host venue . I always found it strange that he didnt do the same when he continued on to Ramalla…ie he didnt “bully” the Palestinians to listen to Smetena’s Moldou(Danube) which has strains of Hatika – out of sensitivity for the Palestinians??? I wonder how this reorter of the Guardian would cover that…..

      • I beg to differ. I would hazard a guess that a certain amount of pressure from different sources was exerted on the Tel-Aviv University mamagement to persuade them to cancel the concert.

  11. – Where does Sherwood “chide” Israel for “uniting behind its Holocaust survivors”?
    – Where does she “draw a parallel between the Wagner boycott and the BDS Israel campaign”?

    • By using the Livni quote that equates the widely-recognized Israeli custom of not performing Wagner publicly to worldwide campaigns to boycott, divest and sanction Israel, Ms Sherwood is lending legitimacy to a rather specious parallel. Livni is the scorned party and Ms Sherwood spends an inordinate amount of ink quoting him. As I mentioned earlier, the facts of Ms Sherwood’s story are not the issue. Rather, it is her attempt at politicizing that is intellectually dishonest. What does the Wagner ban have to do with BDS? Absolutely nothing! As such, Ms Sherwood should have spent a bit more time and ink on the Holocaust survivors’ perspective – in order to present both sides of the issue fairly. Thank you for replying to my piece!

      • We’ll have to agree to disagree.

        Just out of interest: doesn’t the understandable aversion to Wagner in Israel more to do with his notorious, revolting polemic “Das Judentum in der Musik” than with the Nazis using his music? They also used Liszt’s Les Preludes, for example, as a fanfare – and I’m not aware of his music being boycotted in Israel.

  12. So let me get this straight, while Israel continues to brutally kill innocent Palestinian children and mothers every single day and perform all acts of brutality forming Palestinian genocide.However, they still whine and play victims. They are doing to Palestinian what has been done to them by Hitler. cannot imagine how the abuser can ever become the abuser. My grandfather, great great grand father and his father have been berried in Jerusalem. How many “Israeli” can claim that?? can never go back to Palestine because I cannot take the humiliation that we have undergo when we go into the boarder.. How do u ask me to coexist with Israeli, if you don’t think that I have the right to exist as a Palestinian??? Whoever chooses to be silent about what is happening against my people is far worse than Hitler, because Human beings evolve with time and because Jews have tasted the bitter taste of prejudice, discrimination and hate. A proud Palestinain

    • while Israel continues to brutally kill innocent Palestinian children and mothers every single day.

      How many innocent Palestinian children have been killed by the brutal Israelis today? Maybe yesterday? Perhaps the day before yesterday?

      …and perform all acts of brutality forming Palestinian genocide

      This genocide somehow must be very ineffective and amateurish if we take into account that much more Palestinians are living in Judea, Samaria, Gaza and Israel than ten years ago.

      My grandfather, great great grand father and his father have been berried in Jerusalem. How many “Israeli” can claim that??

      Certainly not those Israelis whose ancestors have been murdered in Hebron in 1929 by your grandfather.

      I cannot take the humiliation that we have undergo when we go into the boarder..

      1. Maybe you should have accepted the partition in 1949 and not to try to kill every Jew
      2. Maybe you shouldn’t have started the hijackings, the suicide bombings and the terror of the intifadas Just a tought…

      How do u ask me to coexist with Israeli, if you don’t think that I have the right to exist as a Palestinian???

      Read the Hamas Charter please.

      Whoever chooses to be silent about what is happening against my people is far worse than Hitler,

      This was your best sentence Dima, it certainly make us Israelis optimistic and motivates taking risks and make compromises for a future peace between the two people.

  13. ruh nayyek ummak ya ibn alf sharmuta! Smiena hay el-akadhib million marra. Smiet ‘an el-mathal illi biul “al-kilab tanbah wal-qafela tasir?” yalla, imshi tinbah fi makan akher! Ruh ballet el-bahr (ba’ad ma nayyaket ummak)

    • It is sad that you choose such vulgar words in Arabic. You could’ve chosen other words that shows that Arabs are dignified and a respectful nation.

  14. What’s sad is that you repeat the same lies that we have heard a million times before, as I told you. So it seems that the last three words in verse 61 of Sura 3 in the Koran is especially for you: La’anat Allah ‘ala al-kadhibin.

    And now ruh nayyek ummak.

    • well, If you have no more than swear words and curses for me, i will surely not stoop to your level. Give me a solid argument and not swear words that only street boys use! Shame on you.

  15. Calling Koran quotations “swear words”… tzk, tzk, tzk.
    Anyway, after succeeding in writing so many lies in just a few lines, you dare speak about “solid arguments”????
    Once again: ruh nayyek ummak, ya ibn alf sharmuta!

  16. was referring to these words, if you don’t know what they mean, please check. wasn’t referring to Quran words, I was referring to these swear words. : ruh nayyek ummak ya ibn alf sharmuta. TH

  17. Marra ukhra (yabdu innak mish fahem): La’anat Allah ‘ala al-kadhibin! ruh tinbah fi makan akhar, ibn kalb! akadhibak tulaim qana’at al-khanzira wa wasail al-i’ilam al-filastiniyya, ruh waukdhub hunak!

  18. Whether the number of Palestinians is on the rise or not is not our argument. Fact is many Palestinians were killed in Sabra and Shatilla massacre. many children in Gaza camps continue to be killed every single day. That said i do not in any way approve of Hamas’s laws and by no means do I approve of the suicide bombings. innocent lives are precious whether Palestinian or Israeli. Regarding my grandfather, he was a farmer and he owned a lot of land, whoever, when the Jewish settlers came in, a big part of his land was given to the Jewish settlers took over.

    believe in peace and never believed in War. as war changes lives and destroys souls and i feel sorry for every mother who loses a child no matter what nationality she is.

    Regarding 1949: if you were sitting in your house relaxing, and then somebody shows up and tells you we are taking your house and you need to move out?? Wouldn’t you be bitter about it.

    Anyways, this is the first time in this thread that you use this type of civilised language. have no problem if your opinion opposed to mine. However, when you use obscene words to swear at my mother then I find it very offensive. YOU don’t have to apologize for me not having a homeland but you surely have to apologize for using such offensive and obscene language. That was personal attack and i think u owe me an apology. Until then may peace prevail in the holy land.

    • Whether the number of Palestinians is on the rise or not is not our argument.
      You accused the Israelis with genocide so the increasing number of Palestinians proves that you simply lied.

      Fact is many Palestinians were killed in Sabra and Shatilla massacre….</I.
      a. It happened 30 years age and not every day
      b. The perpetrators were your Arab brothers.

      … many children in Gaza camps continue to be killed every single day.
      This is not a fact but pure unadultered crap. Please show me only one name, report, source whatever about today, yesterday and the day before…

      Regarding my grandfather, he was a farmer and he owned a lot of land, whoever, when the Jewish settlers came in, a big part of his land was given to the Jewish settlers took over.

      Lie again. The settlers are living on lands either bought legally from its owner or lands without any previous owner.

      believe in peace and never believed in War. as war changes lives and destroys souls and i feel sorry for every mother who loses a child no matter what nationality she is.

      Then why not make peace? You have been offered the possibility minimum five times during the last 65 years.

      Regarding 1949: if you were sitting in your house relaxing, and then somebody shows up and tells you we are taking your house and you need to move out?? Wouldn’t you be bitter about it.

      Your ancestors weren’t sitting peacefully in their houses relaxing but attacked the Jews. You lost – tough luck Dima. There are more than one million Arab citizens in Israel whose ancestors really sit in their house at that time – they continue to live in their houses.

    • And by the way
      That was personal attack and i think u owe me an apology.

      No Dima you owe an apology because you falsely accused the Israelis with child murder and genocide..

      • When u u tell a person : f### your mother that is personal attack that cannot any lower. These were ur words that used in Arabic. When I accuse Israel of killing children that is a fact that even pro peace Israelis are protesting against in many parts of the world. I am against the killing of any innocent life whether palestinain, Israeli or anything else. However, you cannot deny the fact that innocent children are being killed by Israeli all the time. That pent up anger and feeling of oppression is what created a generation willing to blow up themselves out of despair. Whether right or wrong is not the issue. Israel has created this generation that knows only how to hate.

        • I repeat last time: Name a Palestinian or any other children killed by Israelis intentionally today, yesterday etc (as you say every day – al lthe time) If you can’t do it then please kindly STFU.
          BTW there are a lot of Jewish/Israeli children slaughterd by your poor victim compatriots, and they did it intentionally and would really do it every day if we would let them.

          That pent up anger and feeling of oppression is what created a generation willing to blow up themselves out of despair. Whether right or wrong is not the issue. Israel has created this generation that knows only how to hate.

          Maybe you should seek for help from an anger management professional. Are you seriously saying that wanton murder and atavistic hate is not the sin of the perpetrator? A very interesting ethical opinion, but somehow doubtful that acceptable for civilised people. If we Jews behaved this way no living European gentiles would be around anymore

          These were ur words that used in Arabic.

          You are confusing me with someone else. If I swear I do it in Hungarian.

  19. Repeating lies (“many children in Gaza camps continue to be killed every single day.”) but still expecting an apology, … as they say “qimmat al-nifaq”

    • And one more thing: there will be peace when there will be a Palestinian leadership which doesn’t lie day and night, first and foremost to its own people. Judging by your ramblings (and by the hypocrisy of your leaders, who talk to the West about peace, like you, while they praise child killers in Arabic) – that day is very far.

  20. Ur leaders are not any better…. Let us agree to disagree….. Go check how many amazing Israelis are acknowledging our suffering as a nation and demanding that Israel give us back our right. Ur leaders feed u with lies too and convince u that u r the victims… How different is What Israel did in QANA, Deir yassin, sabra and Shatila different than what hitler did to Jews????? U live in ur own bubble and refuse to see outside the box, I have an Israeli friend who is calling for peace and for Israel to withdraw from 1948. Wake up and smell the coffee.. Ur country is the nazi of the century!! Heard it from many contemporary historians.. Check out the Mohammad Durra link on YouTube and watch how this 12 year old boy was killed by Israeli soldier while sitting next to his father!!!

    • Check out the Mohammad Durra link on YouTube and watch how this 12 year old boy was killed by Israeli soldier while sitting next to his father!!!

      There is a small problem with this smear. It has been proved without any doubt that it was a hoax…Maybe you should google “France2 – Karsteny”
      Maybe you could learn something about your disgusting hate-propaganda.

    • An interesting and convincing argument – as expected from a poor victim of murderous opression.

  21. What happened in France was very sad and wrong.. As I keep saying that any killing of innocent lives is wrong. Are you really convinced that Israel has never brutally killed any Palestinian? If this was the case how come there is an entire generation willing to blow up themselves just to kill one Israeli?? Had Israel been the peaceful nation, then trust me this generation would have never existed…… Anyway let us agree to disagree and I pray that nobody is killed in Palestine , not a Jew, not a Moslim and not a Christian.

  22. Deir yassin massacre did take place so did QANA in Lebanon ” I was there” so did sabra and Shatila and I know our leaders suck but so does all of them. Yet, this doesn’t give the right for any Israeli to kill and humiliate us. Some of us left Palestine thinking it was temporary until things went back to normal but m any were forced out… I am 37 and I have never seen my grandparents house in Jerusalem bec I refuse to be humiliated on the borders.

    • Deir yassin massacre did take place …
      No it didn’t. Not like the Gush Etzion killing of jewish civilians by Arab bandits and the Arab Legion commanded by British officers.

      …so did QANA in Lebanon …
      Maybe your heroes shouldn’t have launched rockets from the direct vicinity of refugee camp…

      ,,,so did sabra and Shatila…
      Don’t be disturbed for a second by the fact that the perpetrators of Sabra and Shatila were Arabs.

      ..Yet, this doesn’t give the right for any Israeli to kill and humiliate us..
      We have the right to defend ourselves. If you want to kill us don’t cry when we hit back.

      Some of us left Palestine thinking it was temporary until things went back to normal

      You were told by your leaders that you can come back when the Arab Armies killed all Jews. You call it normal. Many of your compatriots didn’t leave and are living here as equal citizens of Israel.

      but m any were forced out
      There were many that’s true. It was a very brutal war – started by you and you lost.

      I am 37 and I have never seen my grandparents house in Jerusalem bec I refuse to be humiliated on the borders.

      That’s really sad. Your problem is similar to the fate of a million Jews who escaped from Muslim countries and never could visit them again.

      • Whatever!!! U believe what u want to believe!! Most of u were in Russia, hungary, East Germany?? what brought u to Palestine???? A nation is never based on religion!! ndependence?? t was called Palestine, Moslims, jews and Christians live there! i do not by any means approve of hamas or other philosophy which is built on terror, however, u have extremist jews who believe Palestinians should be wiped off the face of the earth!! U know who i blame?? i blame all religions that were the reason wars erupted around teh world since man was created! Every religion tells its people they are ”
        the chosen” therefore creating hate among each other.. All massacres did take place and maybe the 1929 massacre did take place but I am talking about today. My grandma is from jerusalem and she had jew classmates way before the Nakba ” which u call independence” and they lived in harmony. My mom grew up in Egypt and had jewish friends in her class and they lived in harmony. U wanna blame someone blame religion for making u believe that this is ur promised land and made u feel that it is OK to kill and torture to get it!!

      • Fact: You are an occupier. Check UN resolution. Israel never got its independence because it was never occupied!! t simply has been based on the misery of Palestinians! Unfortunately, u have the weapons, our land and USA on your side!! But you know how history changes and one day maybe not in our times, what israel did to the Palestinians will be taught in schools and maybe your people will have to spend a lifetime apologizing for my people like Germans do now!!
        Check what this Israeli professor, whose parents survived the holocaust and hear what he has to say..

  23. If this was the case how come there is an entire generation willing to blow up themselves just to kill one Israeli??

    How come? Maybe you should read the Holy Quran, the speeches of Husseini and the Hamas Charter plus watch the palestinian and Hamas TV and you will get the answer.

    Had Israel been the peaceful nation, then trust me this generation would have never existed

    Dima have you ever heard of the Hebron massacre in 1929 twenty years before the Israeli independence? maybe the word Farhud means anything to you?

  24. Well done Peterthehungarian.
    I wish I could argue with those liars in such a cool and factual way.
    I express myself in a bit harsher terms than you because of the simple fact that hypocrite liars like the one here make me too angry – they are the reason that there is no hope for peace for the next generation.
    Hopefully finally at least this liar went where I told him to go: to place tiles under the sea (“ruh ballit al-bahr”).

  25. For example, take the lies in his latest ramblings:
    ” A nation is never based on religion!”
    1. Judaism is not only a religion
    2. Tell that to Pakistan and the Vatican, for example.

    ” i do not by any means approve of hamas or other philosophy which is built on terror, however, u have extremist jews who believe Palestinians should be wiped off the face of the earth”
    Comparing a loud minority in Israeli society with the overwhelming majority of Palestinian society is another miserable tactic employed by hypocrite liars.

    ” maybe the 1929 massacre did take place”

    Maybe?

    Add this to the fact that he didn’t answer any of your points, and there, you have the reason for all the misery in the Middle East.

  26. Liars and their “facts” and wet dreams:

    “Fact: You are an occupier. Check UN resolution.”

    You as in “Israelis”? Which UN resolution? 181 which called for a Jewish state that both Hamass and Fatah refuse to recognize?

    ” Israel was never occupied.”
    There were no Greeks, Romans, Byzantinians, Persians, Arabs, Turks and the English.

    ” one day maybe not in our times, what israel did to the Palestinians will be taught in schools and maybe your people will have to spend a lifetime apologizing for my people like Germans do now!”

    Why don’t you go and wait for that to happen – under the sea?

    “Check what this Israeli professor”
    He is not Israeli, he is Jewish. Don’t let the facts confuse you.

    Note how you don’t confront the facts debunking your lies, you just post new ones in each comment.

    Have I told you that “dogs bark but the caravan moves on?” Al-kilab btinbah wal-qafela tasir. Keep barking your lies, deny historical facts – it is exactly hypocrites like you who are an obstacle to the solution.

  27. like people like u are contributing to find a solution!!! Go back to the country where u came from. My grandfather’s birth certificate says Born in Palestine. Where does yours say?? I may post new comments every time and don’t answer all ur comments ” because am at work” but I surely never called u a dog who is barking… still, i will not stoop to ur level.
    Too bad the holocaust did not wipe off people with ur mentality off the face of the earth! Too bad people like u exist.

    Yes, I am palestinian, my uncle from my mom’s side is Faisal Husseini and his father is Abdelqader Al Husseini and they are all from Jerusalem! U can call it Israel, I will simply call it Palestine, which is occupied by israel.

  28. A million thanks for proving my points:
    ” Go back to the country where u came from” – seeking a just solution, based on UN resolutions, are we?
    ” I may post new comments every time and don’t answer all ur comments ” because am at work””
    So what, I’m at work too. You know, as the Hebrew saying goes, ” excuses are like a hole in the ass – everybody has one.”

    ” Too bad the holocaust did not wipe off people with ur mentality off the face of the earth!”
    The exact attitude needed in order to solve all our problems.

    ” my uncle from my mom’s side is Faisal Husseini and his father is Abdelqader Al Husseini”
    Proud in relatives who supported Nazis, are we? Why am I not surprised?

    And now go and bark somewhere else, kadhhab ibn kadhaab (baad ma ruht wanayyakt ummak)

  29. Adam Kredo has written an excellent piece at the http://www.freebeacon.com http://freebeacon.com/schoolhouse-hate/ about Dima Subeih’s comments; to which I’ve emailed him asking this;

    “Hello Adam,
    Regarding your excellent piece; “Schoolhouse Hate Employee at State Department sponsored school engages in anti-Semitic hate speech” the followup question would be what is the USA doing funding a school in a country that BANS jews from owning land or being citizens anyway? Surely this is supporting racism and Arab apartheid?”

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