Irish Times

Are Jews the most incompetent “ethnic cleansers” in the world?

It would be easy to dismiss an absurd comment left by a reader (beneath a recent CiF Watch post about bias at the Irish Times) as simply not worthy of attention.  However, to do so you’d have to ignore polls in Europe demonstrating that the view he expressed about Israel is in fact quite popular. 

Our post, on an egregious example of anti-Israel propaganda by Irish Times reporter Frank McDonald, elicited the following friendly advice to Israelis:

stop committing genocide and people will stop criticizing you.

As I indicated above, the charge the Israel is committing genocide against the Palestinians is not at all marginal.

Asked to respond to the statement that “Israel is conducting a war of extermination against the Palestinians,” (in a 2011 poll conducted by Friedrich Ebert Stiftung) 63.3 percent of Polish participants expressed agreement, as did 48.8 percent in Portugal, 47.7 percent in Germany, 42.4 percent in Great Britain, 41 percent in Hungary, 38.7 percent in The Netherlands, and 37.6 percent in Italy. 


Of course, debating the “question” of whether Israel is conducting a war of extermination against the Palestinians seems at first glance to be as productive as ‘arguing’ whether or not Jews are trying to take over the world. However, unlike the latter charge, which, no matter how hateful and irrational, is not really quantifiable, the former malicious smear – reflecting the “Israel as the new Nazis narrative which Richard Landes argues indicates (among other pathologies) a desire to be freed from Holocaust guilt – can be easily refuted by a few population statistics.

  • The Palestinian population in the West Bank increased from 462,000 in 1949 to more than 2.5 million today.
  • In Gaza, the population increased from 82,000 in 1949 to 1.7 million today.

Additionally, to add further context:

  • The number of Arabs killed (since 1920) in Arab-Israeli wars is less than the number of Arabs killed by Arabs in Syria alone since 2011.

As a point of reference, the Jewish population of Gaza and Palestinian controlled West Bank is practically zero (save a few pro-Palestinian “journalists” who reside there), while the Jewish population in the entire Arab Middle East has decreased from over 850,000 in 1949 to less than 5,000 today.  (Yet, relatedly, despite the almost complete disappearance of Jewish inhabitants in territories they control, Palestinian and Arab leaders continually incite their population to engage in mass murder against Jews in Israel and the diaspora.)

The broad charge that Jews are ethnically cleansing Arabs (Palestinians or otherwise) in the Middle East, based on the numbers, represents the opposite of the truth.  In the territory where Jews rule or have ruled in some manner since 1948 the Arab population has increased dramatically, while territories in the region where Arabs rule (representing over 99% of the total land) have slowly become either nearly or completely Judenrein.

I don’t expect the commenter at our blog to be moved by such dry statistics, but you’d at least hope that those who fancy themselves “sophisticated” Europeans – especially given their ‘special’ history – would at least take notice when empirical data contradicts their secular faith in immutable Israeli malevolence.     

Those suggesting that Israel is conducting “a war of extermination against the Palestinians” are engaging in an almost comical historical inversion, and at the very least would have to conclude in the face of the evidence that Jews are, by far, the most incompetent practitioners of “ethnic cleansing” on the planet.

200 replies »

    • Life expectancy in Gaza is higher than that of Scotland (even with the last 2 conflicts).
      I wonder what is the comparison between the WB and Gaza life expectancy and that of Bangladesh, Pakistan or Afghanistan.

  1. Adam, I know this is off topic but can I please draw the attention to an odd bit about the above chart?

    Question 7-9 have quiet terrible percentage in some countries. Near 70% in Hu and near 50% in PL think Jews have too much power in their countries.
    In Q9 3 out of the 8 countries have over 50% that believe the Jews care only about themselves or their kind.
    Yet in Q10 all the countries (except It @ 49.7%) have over 50% belief that the Jews enrich their countries.
    This just doesn’t add up to common sense, but AntiSemitism and common sense never had a common ground…

    • The Enrichment question has to do with the cultural side …fine arts,classical music,…high-minded lovely things. Jewish people usually are very generous in supporting The Arts all over the World. That where your high marks come

  2. “… that Jews are, by far, the most incompetent practitioners of “ethnic cleansing” on the planet.”

    Oh great! We don’t die right, we don’t rape right, now we don’t even ethnically cleanse right!

    • Well obviously – because look at the logic – if Jews are incredibly brilliant mathematicians, scholars, scientists, humanitarians and leaders, AND they haven’t yet taken over the world, then they also obviously have to be the most incompetent people in the world at actually doing things, right? Only way it all (sort of) hangs together logically.

      As far as the whole ‘palestinian genocide’ and the logic behind it – it’s called being the low-information voter. And anti-semitism has been an official government policy in Eastern European states since what – forever? You have to expect that a lot of people will just be expressing something they were fed as kids, and never thought about – like “Germans are efficient, Italians are lazy” or whatever.

      • Historically, anti-Judaism was the rule in Eastern Europe as it was employed as a divide-and-rule tactic by the ruling elite to retain control over their own societies.
        Anti-Semitism was an invention by a German journalist in the 19th Century, which the Zionists eagerly adopted, as it provided them with a basis on which to urge all European consumers of the Mosaic Code to quit Europe and migrate to Palestine.
        Tragically, while the most assimilated, urbane and sophisticated European Jews resisted Zionism, they fell victim to the appalling policies of the Nazis, meaning that among Jews most of the best were lost in the holocaust, leaving only the extremists and most base individual survivalists alive at the end of the war, who were involved in setting up the Zionist state and setting in train the events of the Nakba, through which the Zionists inflicted large-scale death and destruction on the Palestinians.

        • He denies even Antisemitism, this nazi!!
          And the Antisemite follows up with smearing the surviving of the Holocaust as extremists and darwinists.
          Kick out this nazi.

        • Where did you learn about the Nakba, John? Arab propaganda? At around the time of the Nakba hundreds of thousands of Jews were booted out of their homes in Arab countries while being forced to leave all of their wealth and property behind. Most of them ended up in Israel, where they were absorbed into the general population and quickly stopped being refugees. Many more Jews were kicked out of Arab countries than were Arabs forced out of Israel, but for some odd reason nobody talks about it. For some reason you only hear whining and bellyaching about the so-called Arab refugees, so-called because many of them left of their own accord on the advice of Arab leaders who promised them a safe return after the envisaged Genghis Khan style massacre of Jews in Israel that was meant and promised to take place, literally.

          65 years on, you still have “refugee” camps in Arab countries, which are actually concentration camps in which Arabs keep other Arabs under a strict Apartheid regime designed to ensure their everlasting misery, so that “humanists” like you can take pity on them and blame Israel for their misfortune. I’ll bet you didn’t know this, John, or you probably think I’m a liar. Historical truth doesn’t amount to much in the eyes of do-good self-righteous “humanists”, who don’t allow facts to confuse them.

          The Nakba is “Charta”, as some of us call it in Israel. “Charta” is an Arab euphemism for bullshit, an overrated invention designed to leverage the misery of so-called refugees (most alive today have never even been to Israel), and caused by an unprovoked Arab attack on Israel with the intent of causing another holocaust. Arabs shoot themselves in the foot, fools like you feel sorry for them and blame Israel.

          By the way, John, you are aware I assume, that you are an “infidel”. I hope you do, because after the Arabs have had their pleasure of watching you defend them like the slogan chanting puppet that your are, they will do to you what is dictated in Koran for all infidels. You won’t get Brownie points and an exemption badge for service to their society. The fate of Lee Rigby is destined to be yours as well, believe it or not.

        • Your problem is you only believe that who HATE Jews and Christians. The self-risghteous LEFT has been spreading lies for years! Even CBS wanted a Jew (a former reporter for them Mr. Cohen) to LIE about the war in Israel and smear the Jews! He wouldn’t tell us what they wanted him to say, but he quit! The News media refuses to tell you ALL the Jews that are murdered by Palestinian bombs! They refuse to tell you that because they only want you to know every time Israeli government sends a bomb back – which the news media will be very quick to tell you is vehemently wrong! Why? Only palestinians have the right to practice genocide (not how they say it, but the should because that is what it is!)

          • I do mean THOSE who hate Jews and Christians! Sorry, can’t spell! LOL

            Lastly, I seriously believe that its time that Israel takes over the Hamas, steals the children, trains them how to not fight and instead be good palestinians and returns them to their parents, unharmed! And, do this AFTER they take lots of photos of how Hamas is treating them, and training them to kill and do so, by committing suicide.

  3. Thanks for drawing my attention to this report on ‘Intolerance, Prejudice
    and Discrimination’, Adam. The conclusions I draw from the questionnaire data are a little more subtle than yours:

    – People tend to respond to this type of question in a ‘halo’ fashion. Asked questions critical of Jews they will answer in the same direction if they are anti-semitic, regardless of the specific issues raised. Similarly those critical of Israeli policy will tend to answer negatively regardless of the specific question.

    – With that in mind responses to the ‘extermination’ question make more sense. If the questionnaire had probed further I suggest much smaller numbers would claim that Israel literally wants to exterminate Palestinians, although there is widespread feeling that Israel is stealing Palestinian land, would drive them out of Palestine if they could and regards the lives of Palestinians very cheaply.

    – Looking at the responses of the least anti-semitic countries (Netherlands and the UK) it is apparent that their scores on Israeli policy questions are much closer to the international mean than their responses to anti-semitic questions. This suggests that interviewees can readily distinguish between being anti-Jewish and being anti-Israeli, unlike many contributors to CifWatch I might say.

    – I am sorry that you did not find space to comment on the “Jews enrich our culture” question. Even in the most anti-semitic countries majorities agreed with this statement – surely a positive finding worth mentioning.

    • Your speculation can be easily reversed when taking Poland and Hungary as comprehensive examples how homogenous antizionism and antisemitism already are.

    • Sencar:
      “- I am sorry that you did not find space to comment on the “Jews enrich our culture” question. Even in the most anti-semitic countries majorities agreed with this statement – surely a positive finding worth mentioning”

      Which is why I brought to this to the attention.
      Very strange and proves the extreme hypocricy of AntiSemitism and racism in general.

    • “With that in mind responses to the ‘extermination’ question make more sense. If the questionnaire had probed further I suggest much smaller numbers would claim that Israel literally wants to exterminate Palestinians, although there is widespread feeling that Israel is stealing Palestinian land, would drive them out of Palestine if they could and regards the lives of Palestinians very cheaply.”

      The Oxford English dictionary defines extermination as: “killing, especially of a whole group of people…”

      It does not have anything to do with issues related to land ownership or location.

      • Have you actually read and understood my post? If you had you would realise that your point has already been answered. People answering questionnaires don’t necessarily respond to the literal wording of the question but (especially when the issue is highly emotive) to their general perception of the issues involved. So, given an opportunity to express criticism of Israeli government policy, many will do so even if the specific criticism is exaggerated.

          • “So questionnaires are a waste of time?”

            No Itsik, not if they are conducted properly.
            In 2012 Eurobarometer, which is an ongoing survey carried our regularly, conducted a survey specifically on discrimination in the EU (then 27 countries).
            The full report and a summary is available online if you ‘Google’ Eurobarometer 2012 Discrimination survey, it is a couple of hundred pages.
            pretzelberg it does cover attitudes and discrimination towards the Roma.

            In the interests of transparency I should declare that in the past I have worked on previous Eurobarometer surveys, but not on this one as when the fieldwork was carried out last June I was out of the UK.

            • Thanks Gerald.
              This confirm my suspicion.
              The question was posed to Sencar who stated his belief that if, for example, one has a tendandancy to dislike economic migrants, that person would not look at the specifics of a question but answer negativly about every aspect regarding them.

              This does not fit with the above examples as it is clear AntiSemitic attitudes are expressed by some countries in large numbers yet when asked about contribution of Jews positive attitudes are revieled in large numbers.

              It’s almost like saying Jews tend to care only about themselves.
              Jews Enrich my culture.
              My culture becoming selfish means it is being enriched.

        • Yes, and I found your conclusions absurd. If you asked the most ardent pro-Israel person if the Iranians exterminated 90% of their Jewish population, I doubt a single one would answer yes.

          • Sencar, I have to state that Dave is correct.
            I for one would not say Iranians exterminated 90% of its Jews.
            I’m not sure I would automatically say yes even if the word Expelled was used.
            Even if most of my Israeli Iranian friends told me many times that many Iranians are Anti Semites. And they should know after all, they lived there.

  4. In 1933, the world’s Jewish population at that time was estimated at 15.3 million.
    Projected number of Jews worldwide for 2020: 13,558,000
    80 years since world Jewry numbered more than 15 million, the loss of the six million has not been recovered.

    – According to this source, the number of Palestinian Arabs in 1946 was: ~
    1, 221,000
    – According to this source, the estimated number of Palestinians all over World by the end of 2005 is 10.1 million.

    65 years after the Palestinian “Nakba”, and for all the genocide that Israel is accused of having perpetrated upon these Palestinians, their population worldwide sprang from 1.2 million to possibly 11 millions today.

  5. Absolutely right to point this out – but you’re “preaching” to the converted here.
    The stats for Hungary and Poland are frightening but sadly not surprising. Although what’s question 10 doing there?

    • Every one focusing on question 10 which indeed is buffeling.
      It most certainly in the right place in my mind because it shows that even the more AntiSemitic states they appreciate the Jews’ contribution.
      Does this makes the residents of those country more sheepish in their behaviour?

  6. In a way it is right to ask whether the Zionist are not very good ethnic cleanser and to some extent Benny Answers this here

    I’m not sure I understand. Are you saying that Ben-Gurion erred in expelling too few Arabs?

    “If he was already engaged in expulsion, maybe he should have done a complete job. I know that this stuns the Arabs and the liberals and the politically correct types. But my feeling is that this place would be quieter and know less suffering if the matter had been resolved once and for all. If Ben-Gurion had carried out a large expulsion and cleansed the whole country – the whole Land of Israel, as far as the Jordan River. It may yet turn out that this was his fatal mistake. If he had carried out a full expulsion – rather than a partial one – he would have stabilized the State of Israel for generations.”

    I find it hard to believe what I am hearing.

    “If the end of the story turns out to be a gloomy one for the Jews, it will be because Ben-Gurion did not complete the transfer in 1948. Because he left a large and volatile demographic reserve in the West Bank and Gaza and within Israel itself.”

    In his place, would you have expelled them all? All the Arabs in the country?

    “But I am not a statesman. I do not put myself in his place. But as an historian, I assert that a mistake was made here. Yes. The non-completion of the transfer was a mistake.”

    And today? Do you advocate a transfer today?

    “If you are asking me whether I support the transfer and expulsion of the Arabs from the West Bank, Gaza and perhaps even from Galilee and the Triangle, I say not at this moment. I am not willing to be a partner to that act. In the present circumstances it is neither moral nor realistic. The world would not allow it, the Arab world would not allow it, it would destroy the Jewish society from within. But I am ready to tell you that in other circumstances, apocalyptic ones, which are liable to be realized in five or ten years, I can see expulsions. If we find ourselves with atomic weapons around us, or if there is a general Arab attack on us and a situation of warfare on the front with Arabs in the rear shooting at convoys on their way to the front, acts of expulsion will be entirely reasonable. They may even be essential.”

    Including the expulsion of Israeli Arabs?

    “The Israeli Arabs are a time bomb. Their slide into complete Palestinization has made them an emissary of the enemy that is among us. They are a potential fifth column. In both demographic and security terms they are liable to undermine the state. So that if Israel again finds itself in a situation of existential threat, as in 1948, it may be forced to act as it did then. If we are attacked by Egypt (after an Islamist revolution in Cairo) and by Syria, and chemical and biological missiles slam into our cities, and at the same time Israeli Palestinians attack us from behind, I can see an expulsion situation. It could happen. If the threat to Israel is existential, expulsion will be justified.”

    • Rana:

      “Yes. The non-completion of the transfer was a mistake.””

      That’s because it was never carried out as such. Capiche?

      • Rana is brain washed. There is no space left in her/his mind for any rational consideration that will in fact benefit the future of Palestinian children. Revenge is his suit and revenge is his aim. Beyond that, nothing matters.

        As we are now into the zone of historical wrong doings, here is a history lesson:

        In the Peel Commission Report (July 1937), to the League of Nations, one sentence distinguished itself:

        “Considering what the possibility of finding a refuge in Palestine means to thousands of suffering Jews, is the loss occasioned by Partition, great as it would be, more than Arab generosity can bear?”

        This map ( illustrates the proposed boundaries and size of the Jewish state that the Commission proposed back in 1937. (Compare with this map

        Let me repeat: The statement was written in 1937, when the world was beginning to get wise to what was being planned for the Jews, but even so, the report can only imagine “thousands” of suffering Jews getting a lease on life if permitted to immigrate to Palestine.

        The Arabs of Palestine, though addressed with the most explicit plea in the report for showing “generosity” to the persecuted Jews of Europe, existentially threatened, did not for a second consider this possibility and continued to mount their pressure on the British to seal the borders. When there was hardly a country in the world open to accept Jewish refugees fleeing from Hitler’s ominous programmes, Mandate Palestine, which had been commissioned with the provision of a safe haven for Jews, chose to close ranks with the Arabs and seal the borders, against the Jews.

        The only place that would have welcomed these refugees and could have saved hundreds of thousands, if not millions of lives, joined the rest of the world’s complicity in these crimes.

        20 years later Ben-Gurion wrote:

        “Had partition [referring to the Peel Commission partition plan] been carried out, the history of our people would have been different and six million Jews in Europe would not have been killed—most of them would be in Israel”.

        Today, the staple Palestinian argument is that they had no responsibility whatsoever for what happened to the Jews. But they did. They bear at the very least the same responsibility as as every country that ever refused to accept Jews who were looking to get out of Europe.

        The Grand Mufti’s special relationship with Hitler is another aspect of Arab complicity in the annihilation of the Jews:

        As German political scientist Matthias Kuntzel chronicled in his work “… the Muslim Brotherhood, which spawned the PLO’s Fatah as well as al-Qaida, Hamas and the Egyptian Islamic Jihad, owes much of its ideological success and pseudo-philosophical roots to Nazism.”

        “In the 1930s, the mufti of Jerusalem, Amin el-Husseini, rigorously courted the Nazis. When, in 1936, he launched his terror war against the Jewish Yishuv in the British controlled Palestine Mandate, he repeatedly asked the Nazis for financial backing, which began arriving in 1937.” “From 1936-39 Husseini’s terror army murdered 415 Jews. In later years, Husseini noted that were it not for Nazi money, his onslaught would have been defeated in 1937. His movement was imbued with Nazism. His men saluted one another with Nazi salutes and members of his youth movement sported Hitler Youth uniforms.”

        With this history as a model, the Palestinian Foundational documents which call for the destruction of Israel make a lot of sense. They were not conceived out of the blue, a reaction to the Six-Day-War and occupation, but were the natural denouement that began in 1920, premises taken to their logical conclusions.

        The Palestinian narrative likes to attribute the establishment of the Jewish State in 1947 to Western guilt over the Holocaust, an expiation of which turned the Palestinian Arabs into a sort of totally innocent sacrificial lamb. But here is the Peel Commission Report, the Jewish acceptance and the Arab rejection, telling us a different kind of story.

        It tells us that Britain reneged on its international commitment to the League of Nation’s mandate principles,
        that there was full awareness of the evil brewing up in Europe against the Jews,
        that there was a formal, international plea addressed to the Arabs to allow a very small part of the territory originally promised to the Jews as a safe haven for persecuted European refugees,
        that there was never the slightest indication that Arabs eEVER considered the implications of such a total and implacable rejection, despite the clear and shrill warnings,
        that the most important Palestinian Arab leader spent the war years as Hitler’s guest, and helping him wherever he could in liquidating Jews.

        It also tells us that Arabs’ rejection of the Peel Commission plea for partition yielded favourable fruits for them: 6 millions Jews exterminated and none who would ever be able to set foot in the land of their ancestral homeland.

        Imagine the re-doubled rage when it turned out that the Jews were not giving up on their existence or their rights in their historical homeland.

        Imagine the rage when it turned out that the Jews could actually fight to keep that land and win!

        Imagine the rage when it turned out that the Jews, far from being a broken up, intimidated and traumatized people, turned out to have the stamina, the will, the intelligence, to build a state where other Jews could now find refuge and no longer need be the supplicants for a right given freely to anyone else: the right for a free, decent, and dignified life in their own country.

        Will the Arabs ever learn that anger makes you stupid? That compromise is not a dirty word? That human rights are indivisible, and that what goes around comes around?

        • Noga,
          There is space in his / her brain for much.
          There is no will.
          Rana seems to be one of those who dislikes Jews.
          Possibly brought up in Bangladesh where any non Muslim can be a target for bullying.
          I had a Hindu colleague from Bangladesh who had to hide his Hindu identity every day when going to school.
          What life this must be. No hope of a better future.
          No wonder he ended up in the UK.
          As an Israeli I heard his stories and couldn’t believe that such a place exist.
          Coming from Israel I don’t see people attacking Arabs like that in mix cities on a daily basis.
          Yes, you have occasional attacks from both sides but no from one side all the time.

    • Are you any relation to Rafi Mirza, the mutt posting elsewhere here? Are you his feminine alter ego/mother/sister/daughter/wife?

  7. “Of course, debating the “question” of whether Israel is conducting a war of extermination against the Palestinians seems at first glance to be as productive as ‘arguing’ whether or not Jews are trying to take over the world.”
    Yes, or asking those respondents when they stopped beating their wives.

  8. Here is another quote from a non washed brain from

    The Evian Conference of July 1938, held in a French town on Lake Geneva,
    brought together representatives of Western countries to address the Jewish plight.In retrospect, and even at the time, it offered the best chance to alleviate the plight of German Jews, through the simple expedient of opening up Western borders to Jewish refugees. But instead, the West ducked its responsibility. In Germany, Hitler could barely conceal his delight. The rejection of the Jews not only further humiliated Jews themselves, but highlighted the hypocrisy of the West’s humanitarian rhetoric.

      • Let him speak. The hypocrite stands indicted by his own words.

        “What makes it so plausible to assume that hypocrisy is the vice of vices is that integrity can indeed exist under the cover of all other vices except this one. Only crime and the criminal, it is true, confront us with the perplexity of radical evil; but only the hypocrite is really rotten to the core.” – Hannah Arendt

    • Providing this valuable quote Rana re-enforces the history contained in my above comment, that the Arabs of Palestine worked harder to make sure that no Jew would enter Palestine, from both ends: Their leadership split between active complicity in Hitler’s schemes from one end, and on the other end, pounding hard on the British mandate authorities to seal the borders against any refugees lucky enough to escape from the evil.

      These are the parents and grandparents of today’s Palestinians who claim all the world’s sympathy for their gratuitous, if not completely bogus, misery.

      • It is also indisputable that extremist Zionist elements collaborated with the Nazis in the 1930s. So, neither group – Palestinian or Zionist – came out of World War Two with any credit whatsoever.

        • It is only “indisputable” to minds like yours, John D. There was no collaboration of the type that Haj Amin Al-Husseini and his constituency indulged in. Whatever you call “collaboration” was a desperate attempt to save the lives of Jews. Only a perverted view of proper feeling could call such an attempt “collaboration”. What the f*** do you know about it?

          • In 1953 the leader of Hungarian Zionism, Rudolf Kastner, brought a libel action in Israel against a holocaust survivor, Malchiel Greenwald, who accused him of collaboration. Kastner was a senior official in the Israeli Labour Party Mapai and due to become one of its members in the next Knesset. Kastner had, in exchange for 700 (which grew to about 1680) of the Jewish elite – members of Zionist groups, the rich, family members etc. – (one thousand of the elite, bourgoeis and Zionsits, shipped out on a train, provided the Gestapo in Hungary with both lists of names and the whereabouts of Jews to be deported. Even worse, the Auschwitz Protocols, complied from the account of Rudolph Vrba (died March 26 2006) and his companion Wetzler, which detailed the whereabouts of Auschwitz and described the operation of the gas chambers, was suppressed by Kastner, who acted as the representative in Hungary of the Jewish Agency, the Palestine wing of the World Zionist Organisation. The result was that nearly 450,000 Hungarian Jews were deported before the Vrba/Wetzler report was broadcast on the BBC and printed in the New York Times in mid June 1944, 6 weeks after the deportation of Hungary’s Jews and their extermination. But at least 100,000 of Budapest’s Jews were saved, despite the best efforts of the Zionist organisations to suppress the Report.
            Kastner lost his libel action in the Jerusalem District Court where Judge Halevi wrote that he ‘sold his soult to the devil’
            Source: 51 Documents: Zionist Collaboration with the Nazis by Lenni Brenner.
            The Zionists broke the anti-fascist boycott of Germany in 1933 because boycotts were ‘unZionist’ (the resulting Transfer Agreement (Ha’avarah)) led to 60% of capital investment in the Yishuv (Zionist state in the making) being from Nazi Germany.
            There is loads more information on the internet about Nazi-Zionist relations.
            Try looking and learning, rather than just unthinkingly reacting

            • “Kastner lost his libel action in the Jerusalem District Court where Judge Halevi wrote that he ‘sold his soult to the devil’”

              From Wiki:

              “Most of the decision was overturned by the Supreme Court of Israel in January 1958. The five judges, Chief Justice Yitzhak Olshan, Shimon Agranat, Moshe Silberg, Shneur Zalman Cheshin, and David Goitein, upheld the appeal on the charge that Kastner was guilty of the indirect murder of Hungarian Jews. Cheshin wrote: “On the basis of the extensive and diverse material which was compiled in the course of the hearing, it is easy to describe Kastner as blacker than black and place the mark of Cain on his forehead, but it is also possible to describe him as purer than the driven snow and regard him as ‘the righteous of our generation.’ A man who exposed himself to mortal danger in order to save others.”[1]

              Four of the judges, with Silberg dissenting, also upheld the appeal on the charge that Kastner was guilty of collaboration. According to Asher Maoz, Silberg agreed with the trial judge that Kastner had “knowingly and in bad faith, fulfilled the wishes … of the Nazis, and thereby made it easier for them to perform the work of mass destruction.” All five judges dismissed the appeal related to the charge that Kastner had helped Kurt Becher escape punishment after the war by writing him a letter of recommendation.[1]”


              Let’s assume, for the sake of argument, that this tragic story happened exactly as John D related it. Now let’s take that position, and recall what he said earlier in this thread: ” It is also indisputable that extremist Zionist elements collaborated with the Nazis in the 1930s. So, neither group – Palestinian or Zionist – came out of World War Two with any credit whatsoever.”, implying of course that Palestinian collaboration with Hitler and the sealing of Palestine’ borders against Jewish refugees is morally equivalent to Kastner’s dealing with Eichmann in order to save a few hundred Jews.

              I ask the readers here to weigh the two sides of this analogy and decide for themselves whether John D has a case that can stand up to moral scrutiny. On the one side, working on two fronts to promote genocide and prevent safe haven to those who are lucky enough to have escaped that genocide. On the other side, Jewish leaders making a deal with an enemy in order to save a few hundred Jewish lives.

              What kind of a mind and a human being would make such a statement and continue to stand behind it?

              • Wiki: Kastner moved to Israel after the war, becoming a manager in the intelligence unit at the Prime Minister’s department in 1952. He was also nominated as a candidate to the Israeli parliament for the MAPAI (Israeli Labour) party. In 1953, he was accused of having been a Nazi collaborator, in a pamphlet self-published by Malchiel Gruenwald, an amateur writer. The allegation stemmed in part from his relationship with Eichmann, and with Kurt Becher, another SS officer; and in part from his having given positive character references after the war for Becher and two more SS officers, thus allowing Becher to escape prosecution for war crimes. The Israeli government sued Gruenwald for libel on Kastner’s behalf, resulting in a trial that lasted two years, and a ruling in 1955 that Kastner had indeed, in the words of Judge Benjamin Halevi, “sold his soul to the devil.” By saving the Jews on the Kastner train, while failing to warn others that their resettlement was in fact deportation to the gas chambers, Kastner had sacrificed the mass of Jewry for a chosen few, the judge said. The verdict triggered the fall of the Israeli Cabinet.

                By the beginning of May 1944, Kastner and many other Jewish leaders had received the Vrba-Wetzler report and other evidence that Hungary’s Jews would be sent to their deaths. The report was released to the leaders of Jewish organizations in the hope that Hungarian Jews would be warned that they were being deported to a death camp and were not being resettled, as they had been led to believe. However, the report was not made public by the Jewish Council in Hungary or by Kastner.

                If you want to defend the actions of Kastner – then go ahead, though from my viewpoint it is obvious he as a Nazi collaborator – plain and simple.

                I will acknowledge that those were confusing and trying times. Had Kastner said “Mea culpa”, it might be possible to forgive him but so few of the Zionist collaborators ever did.

                In the same arena at the same time, now read the history of Joel Brand and how his efforts to save the lives of up to 1,000,000 Jews in exchange for 10,000 trucks was deliberately frustrated by the Zionists in Palestine. Brand told a court in Jerusalem in 1953: “Rightly or wrongly, for better or for worse, I have cursed Jewry’s official leaders ever since. All these things shall haunt me until my dying day. It is much more than a man can bear.”

                If you find my moral scrutiny unacceptable, perhaps you will find that of Joel Brand more to your liking?

                To return to the original title of this article, the events outlined above prove that the Zionists – in these events – were highly efficient ethnic cleansers – of Hungarian Jews.

                • Please note the grotesque perversion of historical cause and effect that John D is practicing in his “thoughts” here. I never heard a more breath stopping malevolence: The attempts by Zionists to save Jewish life in Hungary by organizing their transfer to Palestine are labelled “ethnic cleansing”. This is the kind of “moral” thinking only a diseased mind could spew forth.


                  Here is what i wrote on my blog:

                  One of the most chilling testimonies in the trial was that of Joel Brand, which demonstrated the ineffectual fumbling attempts by the Jewish Hungarian Leadership to help save some Jews in 1944, the impotence of the Jewish Agency when it came to mobilizing the British and American powers to intervene in any way on behalf of the doomed Jews, and the shrunken moral universe which the Nazis erected around the Jews where moral choices were shaven to their bare bones:

                  Brand later testified that Lord Moyne, the British Minister Resident in the Middle East and a close friend of Prime Minister Winston Churchill, was present during one of the interrogations and is alleged to have said: “What can I do with this million Jews? Where can I put them?” Lord Moyne was assassinated in Cairo a few months later on November 6, 1944 by Eliyahu Bet-Zuri and Eliyahu Hakim of the Lehi (Stern Gang). Ben Hecht writes that Ehud Avriel, the Jewish Agency official who had accompanied Brand to Aleppo and had assured him the British would not arrest him, insisted that it was not Lord Moyne who had said this, and asked Brand not to repeat Moyne’s name in Brand’s autobiography, Advocate for the Dead. However, Brand repeated under oath during Eichmann’s trial that it was Lord Moyne who had said it.

                  Lord Moyne’s feeble dismissal of one million Jews echoes Canada’s pre-war policy of refusing to accept any Jewish refugees from Europe: “none is too many”. Except that in Canada’s case, the more charitable might attribute this indifference to disbelief that actual harm may befall the European Jews. Moyne’s retort comes in 1944, when reports of the mass extermination of the Jews have already filtered through and spread into public awareness. It’s frightening how the obvious answer to that question was not readily available to Moyne’s mind.

                  The fact is, it was the kind of war which left decent people bereft of any of the usual tools we use to maintain our decency. No options were there that could be taken without harming other human beings, in some other way. Impossible, actually, for any mind to contain the magnitude of the evil that ruled this planet during those years. We speak and can comprehend a chain of compassion. We cannot understand the depths of that malevolence which created a chain of damages, of snowballing human debasement.

                  • Noga: I do not know what goes on in your mind – though I find your blog comments perfectly understandable – but you have somehow managed to totally invert my “thoughts” – as you put them.

                    Let me state my “thoughts” for you simply and clearly. The Zionists did not care about the fate of the Jews in Europe during the Second World War. Their sole concern was the establishment of a Jewish homeland in Palestine – as, to some extent – outlined in the Balfour Declaration.

                    There was considerable animosity between Zionist and non-Zionist Jews in Europe, which can be traced as far back as the first Zionist Congress, held in Basel in 1897, due to pressure from non-Zionists in Germany forcing the Zionists to hold their congress in Switzerland. On religious and secular grounds, a substantial majority of European Jews consistently opposed the efforts of the Zionists to establish a Jewish-only regime anywhere in the world.

                    Coming back to the period in question, Ben-Gurion made a remark soon after Kristallnacht in reaction to a British decision not to permit 10,000 Austrian and German Jewish children to go to Palestine but instead to offer them refuge in Britain. He stated: ”Were I to know that all German Jewish children could be rescued by transferring them to England and only half by transfer to Palestine, I would opt for the latter, because our concern is not only the personal interest of these children, but the historic interest of the Jewish people.”

                    Rabbi Stephen Wise was the most prominent leader of the American Jewish community during the 1930s and 1940s, and served as “president of both the American Jewish Congress and the World Jewish Congress.” Perhaps there are many fine things that he did in his life, but it is nearly unanimously recognized that the man’s leadership was atrocious when it came to saving Europe’s Jews during the Holocaust. So how could Stephen Wise be regarded as anything other than a despicable human being and a disastrous Jewish leader?

                    Rabbi Wise despicably worked against all efforts of Jewish activists who did all they could to raise awareness of the millions being killed in Europe. Wise referred to Zionist leader Ze’ev Jabotinsky as “a ‘traitor” for preaching evacuation for over a million Eastern European Jews, and said that Bergson Group leader Peter Bergson was “worse than Hitler”. (Bergson worked tirelessly to raise awareness over the fate of Jews in Europe, while Wise claimed it would increase Anti-Semitism in America).

                    Rabbi Ephraim Kestenbaum, son of Rabbi David Kestenbaum who was active in saving European Jews during the Holocaust recounted that Wise phoned his father on several occasions, telling him that he should stop putting so much pressure on the American government to save European Jews.

                    6 Million Jews were slaughtered, and it is clear that the Jewish community of the free world did not do enough to prevent one of our people’s greatest calamities. Who knows how many more Jews there would be today if Wise had done the right thing.


                    My key point, therefore, is that people like ben Gurion and Wise were the authentic representatives of Zionism during the Second World War. They cared nothing about the fate of European Jews in the Nazi concentration and death camps. All they cared about was setting-up a Jewish state in Palestine and everything – everything – else was secondary to that ambition of theirs. Their racist attitudes extended even to Jews who – in their opinion – were unfit to be or become sabras in the new Israel.

                • “The Zionists did not care about the fate of the Jews in Europe during the Second World War. ”

                  You seem very convinced that you are in a position to make this statement, with a straight face. I read your unbelievable slander and I find it easier to understand how the blood libel worked for so many centuries. You cannot beat the combination of intense pleasure and self-righteousness that some people morbidly feel when they make these claims about Jews. It is a well known and tragic flaw in human nature that:

                  “Here is what can sometimes happen: one person wrongs another and doesn’t know how to come back from that. So they deepen the wrong. They add further or worse misdemeanours, falsehoods, calumnies or what have you to the original one. This is the dynamic: to reinforce the thought that the first wrong wasn’t one, anything which might diminish its recipient helps the offending party convince him or herself that the other must be a bad person, so that the first offence against them was somehow deserved. The deepening process is itself the symptom of a moral discomfort that cannot be squarely faced.” (Norm Geras)
                  The Pleasures of Anti-Semitism (by Eve Garrard)


                  • Noga: Thank you for the link to the Eve Garrard article, which I downloaded and printed off so I could respond to the contents in their entirety.
                    Mind you, I almost stopped reading the rest of it when I got to the line ‘It’s very hard for Europe to forgive the Jews for the Holocaust….’. This has to be one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever seen. No European holds the Jews responsible for the holocaust. What an utterly stupid statement to make.
                    Overall, I found her article typically bubble-centred, i.e. she appears to teeter on the brink of hysteria and comes up with some “wordy” justifications to support her narrow and limiting world-view. No authoritative comments are sourced or included in her article – it is just her sounding-off on one of her favourite prejudices.
                    Where she may just have a very tiny point is when she makes reference to moral purity. It may be the case that many of us in Europe view Israelis as carriers – so to speak – of European liberal democratic culture and it may well be the case that we find the behaviour of the Israelis very disappointing in the sense that we see them failing to maintain our expectations in terms of decency towards the Palestinians.
                    We may feel that the Israelis let themselves and us down when they behave like this.
                    It could be argued that our expectations lead us to apply different standards to Israel to those we expect from others in the Middle East. There could be some truth in this.
                    Looking at the incredibly messy situation in places like Tunisia, Libya and Syria (and Egypt?) right now, it would not be unreasonable for Israelis to ask why does Europe not hold them to similar standards?
                    The only answer I can give to that question is that we as Europeans relate more strongly to Israelis than we do to others in the Middle East. We see the others as going through a very messy process of transition towards becoming modern states and societies.
                    Ultimately, it is for Israeli society to decided: would they rather that we in Europe perceived Israel as a moderate form of Middle Eastern mentality or as a regressing form of European mentality. Which do you prefer?

                • This is plain neo ns Diatribe, making zionits to nazis. Kick him out of the forum, that ns troll.

                  • I am amazed that Fritz is capable of submitting comments to this blog – bearing in mind that he died in 1966. Now that is what has to be considered a real super-natural troll. I suppose that even though he has been brain dead for the last 47 years, his fingers have carried on twitching ever since and it is those twitchings that we are all still witnessing to this very day. A truly amazing phenomenon.

          • Noga: the Zionists in Palestine deliberately breached the world-wide boycott of Nazi Germany through transfer agreements. I have left some details on another posting on this web page and you can find plenty of verifiable information on-line as well.

  9. Itsik –

    The Jews have every right like all other people – However, they have no right to other peoples lands. Every one can claim ancient connections to all sorts of places, including the Holy Land, especially most religious narratives, particularly those the Abrahamic faiths, have links to the Holy Lands.

    The Peel Commission had no right to determine the future of other peoples lands. Nothing fair about giving other peoples lands to someone else. If you want to be charitable begin giving away what is yours.

    I like the way you proportion things. You could have said give 99.5% to the Arabs of the Middle East and than give Palestine to the Jews, Palestine which is propably only 1% of the Middle East. How fair is that. But than the reality is that over 50% of Palestine to the Jews who comprised less than 20% percent of the Palestinian population at the time is not fair. No problems with the Jewish connection to the Holy Land as long as the connections others have to the same land, including actual ownership are recognized.

  10. Some of your comments are completely bizarre but it is probably not your fault as you all seem to be living within a self-reinforcing bubble of shared opinion.
    This will always generate uncritical thinking which lacks robustness and rationality.
    Take the frequent references to the Peel Commission and the remark ‘…the Peel Commission recognized the imminent threat the Jews faced in Europe and their urgent need to find refuge for those escaping Holocaust.’ – which most of you appear to have accepted without question. You are all wrong, if you but think about it.
    The principal concern of the Peel Commission was to find a workable solution for the problem of Palestine – not for the problem of Jews in Europe. At that stage (1937), while the Nazis were making life difficult for Jews in Germany, they had not yet embarked on the programme now known as the holocaust (which, incidentally killed an equal number of non-Jews, including Poles, Russians, other Slavic peoples, LGBT people, Roma, Jehovah’s Witnesses and anyone else who opposed the totalitarian regime of the Nazis). As you all must know, it was only in the wake of the Wannsee Conference in January 1942 that a “Final Solution” for the “Jewish Problem” was devised by Heydrich and his fellow conspirators.
    Previously, the Nazis had been happy to see Jews being driven out of Germany and Europe generally. They had agreed a transfer agreement with the Zionists to undermine the global boycott against Nazi Germany in 1933 which ran unopposed until the start of the war in 1939. You must all know this.
    What the Nazis did was totally unforgivable and British duplicity, Arab stubbornness and the Zionists trying to be too clever by half all served to undermine the possibility of any peaceable outcome in historic Palestine – all very tragic, as it turned out.

    • As you all must know, it was only in the wake of the Wannsee Conference in January 1942 that a “Final Solution” for the “Jewish Problem” was devised by Heydrich and his fellow conspirators.

      What are you trying to say?

      Previously, the Nazis had been happy to see Jews being driven out of Germany and Europe generally. They had agreed a transfer agreement with the Zionists to undermine the global boycott against Nazi Germany in 1933

      What “global boycott”?

        • Yeah, yeah, blaming WWII on the Jews …

          You also link to a revisionist neo-Nazi website – and expect to be taken seriously?

          • That is not what I am doing – and you know it is not, unless you are completely stupid.
            No one blames WW2 on the Jews – they were the least able to do anything about it.
            Why don’t you grow up and stop wallowing in faux-victimhood? Try to be a real person and face reality properly – unless that is too taxing for your small mind?

              • You know. My father died in Europe after D Day, liberating concentration and death camp inmates – but that is just how life goes. You don’t hear me complaining.

                • “You know. My father died in Europe after D Day, liberating concentration and death camp inmates..”

                  Really, which Camp was it that your Father died liberating?
                  Of course if it was in 1944/45 that makes you at least 68 years old.

                • Gerald: Well done – you win the arithmetic prize.
                  I was born in February 1945 and never saw my father. I was put up for adoption and I only later found out that my mother died when I was 10 years old. I found out through a half-sister (now dead) about what our mother had told her about my father but she did not have much detail to offer. I do not concern myself about these things. I am glad my father and all those like him fought – and beat – the Nazis.
                  If the Nazis had won, the world today would be utterly appalling. People like me – in Britain – do not forget war time sacrifices but we do forgive our former foe nations.
                  Germany today is so much better than it ever was in the last century.

                • @ John D

                  That hardly answers my question. What kind of “faux-victimhood” are you accusing me of/labelling me with?

                  • You project an attitude that everyone (or all non-Jews) have got it in for you. You are wrong. The vast majority of people around the world consider Israel and Jews both to be inconsequential. Try getting over it. No one is out to get you. Stop being paranoid.

              • I do not accept any validity for the term anti-Semite, as it was a fictional invention by a Viennese journalist in 1879, which the Zionists then – and now – manipulated to make it anything they wanted it to mean. Where I will agree with you is that Hamas do not know what they are talking about – if it is true that they blame WW2 on the Jews – and they should stop those silly little rockets being fired into Israel. They contribute nothing towards resolution or reconciliation of conflict.

                • the term anti-Semite, as it was a fictional invention by a Viennese journalist in 1879
                  So this guy doesn’t even know who coined the term anti-Semitism. How pathetic.

                  • In 1880, German journalist Wilhelm Marr published a pamphlet “The Way to Victory of the Germanic Spirit over the Jewish Spirit”, in which he developed a new German word Antisemitismus – antisemitism, derived from the word “Semitismus” that he had earlier used in a 1873 publication “The Victory of the Jewish Spirit over the Germanic Spirit. Observed from a non-religious perspective.” (“Der Sieg des Judenthums über das Germanenthum. Vom nicht confessionellen Standpunkt aus betrachtet.”.

                    The pamphlet became very popular, and in the same year he founded the “League of Antisemites” (“Antisemiten-Liga”), the first German organization committed specifically to combatting the alleged threat to Germany and German culture posed by the Jews and their influence, and advocating their forced removal from the country.

                    So far as can be ascertained, the word was first widely printed in 1881, when Marr published “Zwanglose Antisemitische Hefte,” and Wilhelm Scherer used the term “Antisemiten” in the January issue of “Neue Freie Presse”.

                    The related word semitism was coined around 1885.

                    Toward the end of his life Marr came to renounce anti-semitism, arguing that social upheaval in Germany had been the result of the Industrial Revolution and conflict between political movements.

                    The lesson endeth here – just for you !!

                • Re: your comment of AUGUST 10, 2013 @ 7:28 PM

                  Vienna is not in Germany.

                  Here endeth your geography lesson.

                  • Of course Vienna is not in Germany – today, though it was during the Third Reich era and was the city in which Adolf Hitler lived as a young man. Journalist Wilhelm Marr was a German-speaker living in the capital of the then Austro-Hungarian Empire.
                    There was a very strong pan-Germanic movement within Austria and other German-speaking parts of the old Habsburg empire. Indeed, the origins of the original Nazi party’s political manifesto were derived from a pan-Germanic organisation located in Austria. Arguably, it was the rise of pan-Germanism which provoked a response of Zionism among a minority of Judaic religion consumers in German-speaking Europe, though the vast majority wanted nothing to do with the Zionists. The phenomenon known as the Jewish Enlightenment regrettably became over-shadowed by the savagery and barbarity of the Nazis. A great shame and stain upon human history.
                    Thus endeth the history lesson.

                • Ns John is a know nothing, especialy in history, Marr lived only a very short time in Vienna, before 1948, but was a long time left winger and as such he developed his ideas of Antisemitism.
                  Maybe a good mirror of you.

                • Which Viennese Journalist?
                  You are not only a ns troll, but a complete idiot, too.
                  Marr lived only for a short time in Vienna, before 1848 and was a well known left winger.
                  Antisemites like you always have troubles with history, facts, logic, causality and ratiionality, self evidently.

    • Absolutely fascinating coverage by two very courageous former IDF soldiers.
      Of particular interest was the revelatory disclosure that within 10 minutes of the 9/11 World Trade Centre attack a unit was ordered into the Jenin refugee camp to blow up buildings, bridges and other infrastructure while “big brother” was not watching.
      It makes me wonder what else took place while the US and most of the rest of the world was distracted by the 9/11 attack?

          • a name like Fritz is far more authentically Nazi than a name like John

            Gosh, surely “John D” isn’t… a bigot??!

            • Seemingly, you are acknowledging that you are Nazi-inclined – and yet you suggest that it is me that is the bigot. You have a most peculiar form of logic, I have to say.
              If you are happy to propound the principles of Zionist national socialism, then I will leave you to it but I will never accept any such principles. Have you actually thought – really thought – about your principles instead of adopting simplistic and glib remarks?

  11. Most of you talk as if you think that Jews were at the absolute centre of attention for all British and European politicians in the 1930s. They were not. The problem of the Jews was only a minor one in the context of Palestine. While most of the people involved in politics across the European continent were aware of the anti-Jewish rhetoric of the Nazis, they none of them expected the Nazis to engage in a death campaign against the Jews. It was simply incomprehensible that a previously civilized nation like Germany would behave in that way, even though there were clues as to their potential conduct in their treatment of black people in South West Africa in the early 1900s. Mind you, it is alleged that British forces under the command of General Kitchener employed similar tactics by setting up concentration camps in South Africa during the Boer War. Hitler and the Nazis claimed they took the idea of concentration camps from the British but this is clearly not true.
    You must all learn to be more detached if you are to become objective observers of reality. Right now, you are all still inside a self-reinforcement bubble.
    You need to break out and seek the illuminating light of true enlightenment.

    • Most people in the world do not bother about Israel. It is an inconsequential little country in an area of the world which is of no great significance. The only reason anyone concerns themselves about Israel at all is because it is the absolute source and lodestar of most of the world’s terrorism, because of it’s own terrorist origins.

    • Kahane was a terrorist, who ended up being jailed in America.
      You want to cite that lunatic as an “authority”, do you?
      Are you as crazy as him?

      • “Kahane was a terrorist, who ended up being jailed in America.”
        No, he ended up being shot to death.

        • A number of the JDL members and leaders, including Kahane, were convicted in relation to acts of domestic terrorism in the United States.[29] In 1975, Kahane was arrested for leading the attack on the police outside the Soviet United Nations mission and injuring two officers, but was released after being given summonses for disorderly conduct. Later that same year, Kahane was accused of conspiring to kidnap a Soviet diplomat, bomb the Iraqi embassy in Washington, and ship arms abroad from Israel. His probation for a 1971 firebomb-making incident was revoked and Kahane was found guilty of violating probation and served a one year federal prison sentence.
          Kahane was killed in a Manhattan hotel by an Arab gunman in November 1990 after Kahane concluded a speech warning American Jews to emigrate to Israel before it was “too late.”[6][7]
          You are right to direct me, yourself and others towards the fact that Kahane was not only a lunatic – but a criminal lunatic.

  12. ◾The Palestinian population in the West Bank increased from 462,000 in 1949 to more than 2.5 million today.
    ◾In Gaza, the population increased from 82,000 in 1949 to 1.7 million today.

    The BBC, Guardian and NY Times will never tell you this.

  13. I should also point out, the Palestinian population in Jerusalem in 67 was 70,000.
    Today its more then 300,000. The Pal population has grown more then 4 times since 67.

  14. rana mirza
    Palestinian People? that is the biggest hoax ever! there never was such a thing they’re just squatters left over failed from attacks at the Holy Land.

    There has never been and there is no such thing as a “Palestinian” Arab nation.

    Jews had lived in and ruled Israel for over a millennia before the Romans, and almost 2000 years before the beginning of the nightmare we now call “islam”.

    As above, “Palestine” was a corruption of “Palestina” which was the name the Romans gave to the Land of Israel after conquering it from the Jews in the First Century.

    When the Ottoman Empire conquered the land they continued to call that land “Palestine”.

    Neither under the Romans nor the Turks was there EVER a separate nation/state nor even a capital in the area as “Palestine”.

    The Arab take-over of the name “Palestinians” was invented in 1964:

    “The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese.

    Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct ‘Palestinian people’ to oppose Zionism.” – PLO executive committee member Zahir Muhsein, March 31, 1977

    Call them “so-called Palestinians”, call them Fakistinians, Terrorstinians, call them descendants of invaders from areas now known as Egypt, Syria, Lebanon and Jordan.
    And never forget that according to the League of Nations, modern–day “Jordan” was supposed to be part of Israel. And the “Jordanians” killed over ELEVEN THOUSAND “so-called palestinians” from September 1970 to June 1971 and expelled the PLO to Lebanon (Search “BLACK SEPTEMBER”).

    Anyone endorsing the new terror-state called “Palestine” is either a terrorist themselves or an ignorant appeaser of jihad.

    And in either event, discussion of “Palestine” is nothing but a cover for stealing the land of the Jews, and those that steal or help steal that land shall be cursed, and dealt with accordingly.

        • “A map of Palestine produced by Ptolemy in circa 100 CE..”

          Are you aware that Ptolemy was born circa 90 AD so that would make him approx. 10 years old?
          Are you also aware that Ptolemy’s method of drawing maps is incredibly inaccurate?
          Are you further aware that Ptolemy was also regarded as an Astrologer?

          Which of course makes him a well qualified source for supporting the ridiculous claims of the Palestinians, in that he was a child who couldn’t draw a reliable map to find his own arsehole and believed you could predict the future by the stars.

          • Ptolemy (aka Claudius Ptolemaeus, Ptolomaeus, Klaudios Ptolemaios, Ptolemeus) lived in Alexandria (in Egypt) from approx. 87 -150 AD. Therefore, it is conceivable that he could have produced the map from around circa 100 CE – is it not?
            He was an astronomer, mathematician and geographer – not an astrologer.
            Do you know the difference?
            The Ptolemaic explanation of the motions of the planets remained the accepted wisdom until the Polish scholar Copernicus proposed a heliocentric view in 1543. Ptolemy’s system was actually more accurate than Copernicus’s. The heliocentric formulation did not improve on Ptolemy’s until Kepler’s Laws were also added.
            Anything else you need educating on?

            • “He was an astronomer, mathematician and geographer – not an astrologer.
              Do you know the difference?”

              Yes ‘John D’ I do know the difference. As does this entry about him.
              From ‘Complete Dictionary of Scientific Biography’ 2008 edition;
              “To modern eyes it may seem strange that the same man who wrote a textbook of astronomy on strictly scientific principles should also compose a textbook of astrology (̓ Απоτελεσματικά, meaning “astrological influences,” or τετράβιβλоς, from its four books).”

              I suggest you research the problems with Ptolemy’s geographical works, and try not to confuse his geography with his works on motions of planets ‘John D’

              • Isaac Newton carried out alchemical experiments. Does that mean you now ignore Newtonian physics and mathematics? Ptolemy simply represented – in an advanced way – the knowledge of his time. Bearing in mind the fact that he lived around 2,000 years ago, it is easy to be “picky” about his – and everyone else’s – knowledge of the world as it existed then. As a very young boy, I recall most everyday people holding some really odd notions about the Moon (before we had seen the back of it) and other aspects of our solar system and the Universe – so don’t get sniffy about the state of Ptolemaic knowledge; he did the best he could with what he knew and could imagine. It is always a logical fallacy to apply modern knowledge to prior epochs.

                • What a surprise ‘John D’
                  You denied that Ptolemy was an astrologer, then when you are shown to be wrong you try and go off on a different tangent.

                  Perhaps you should stick to posting on neo-Nazi and conspiracy theorist sites they are on the same intellectual level as you, which is somewhere below that of a dog turd.

                  • Gerald: I do not know how many times I have to tell you Ptolemy was an astronomer and not an astrologer. Do you understand the difference? Your other remarks I leave to others of a similarly low intellectual level like yourself to deal with.

      • pretzelberg: there is an old saying “When you point a finger at someone else – three fingers point back”. Do you understand? It means that the accusation you are making – of so-called hate-mongering – probably applies three-fold to you. Get it?

          • Is it Fritz or pretzelberg who is the moron making this remark?
            Just so everyone knows which knuckle-scraper we are addressing, you understand?

              • Fritz’s dying brain is finally caving in for all to see. I make no apologies for reading the New Statesman from time to time. At least I am still alive to do it, unlike Fritz.

                • Your adored Marr was a long-time left and an nstroll like you cites whatever fits his brain called cuckoo, Ns Revisionist sites, New Statesman, as long as they support his antisemitc views.

        • @ John D
          I’m calling both you and Ken Kelso hate mongers. I hardly think your old saying applies to me.

    • Just look at this comment from Ken Kelso:
      discussion of “Palestine” is nothing but a cover for stealing the land of the Jews, and those that steal or help steal that land shall be cursed, and dealt with accordingly

      That sorry – and rather threatening! – bit of propaganda seems to enjoy significant support here.

      Are the CiFWatch crew OK with this?
      Imagine if someone said something similar – “those that steal or help steal that land shall be cursed, and dealt with accordingly” – about Israel proper.

      You’d be outraged – and rightly so.

    • I only just noticed this – albeit sullied – “gem”:

      And never forget that according to the League of Nations, modern–day “Jordan” was supposed to be part of Israel.

      Are you – and the people supporting your preposterous post – really that deluded?

      Or are you just chancing it?

  15. rana mirza, In Abbas racist book, Abbas declared that the gas chambers were never used to murder Jews and dismissed as a “fantastic lie” that six million Jews had died in the Holocaust; at most, he wrote, “890,000” Jews were killed by the Germans. And they were killed, Abbas wrote, in part as a result of Zionist provocation orchestrated by Ben-Gurion from 1942. Or, as he put it: “The Zionist movement led a broad campaign of incitement against the Jews living under Nazi rule, in order to arouse the government’s hatred of them, to fuel vengeance against them, and to expand the mass extermination.” All of this was designed somehow to facilitate the victory of Zionism.

  16. Ken I blame the Zionists myself but so also the UN

    A United Nations human rights body accused Israeli forces on Thursday of mistreating Palestinian children, including by torturing those in custody and using others as human shields.

    Palestinian children in Gaza and the West Bank, occupied by Israel in the 1967 war, are routinely denied registration of their birth and access to health care, decent schools and clean water, the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child said.

    “Palestinian children arrested by (Israeli) military and police are systematically subject to degrading treatment, and often to acts of torture, are interrogated in Hebrew, a language they did not understand, and sign confessions in Hebrew in order to be released,” it said in a report.

    The Foreign Ministry said it had responded to a report by the UN children’s agency UNICEF in March on ill-treatment of Palestinian minors and questioned whether the UN committee’s investigation covered new ground.

    “If someone simply wants to magnify their political bias and political bashing of Israel not based on a new report, on work on the ground, but simply recycling old stuff, there is no importance in that,” spokesman Yigal Palmor said.

    The report by the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child acknowledged Israel’s national security concerns and noted that children on both sides of the conflict continue to be killed and wounded, but that more casualties are Palestinian.

    Most Palestinian children arrested are accused of having thrown stones, an offense which can carry a penalty of up to 20 years in prison, the committee said. soldiers in the Israel Defense Forces had testified to the often arbitrary nature of the arrests, it said.

    The watchdog’s 18 independent experts examined Israel’s record of compliance with a 1990 treaty as part of its regular review of a pact signed by all nations except Somalia and the United States. An Israeli delegation attended the session.

    The UN committee regretted Israel’s “persistent refusal” to respond to requests for information on children in the Palestinian territories and occupied Syrian Golan Heights since the last review in 2002.


    “Hundreds of Palestinian children have been killed and thousands injured over the reporting period as a result of the state party military operations, especially in Gaza where the state party proceeded to (conduct) air and naval strikes on densely populated areas with a significant presence of children, thus disregarding the principles of proportionality and distinction,” the report said.

    Israel battled a Palestinian uprising during part of the 10-year period examined by the committee.

    It withdrew its troops and settlers from the Gaza Strip in 2005, but still blockades the Hamas-run enclave, from where Palestinian militants have sometimes fired rockets into Israel.

    During the 10-year period, an estimated 7,000 Palestinian children aged 12 to 17, but some as young as nine, had been arrested, interrogated and detained, the UN report said.

    Many are brought in leg chains and shackles before military courts, while youths are held in solitary confinement, sometimes for months, the report said.

    It voiced deep concern at the “continuous use of Palestinian children as human shields and informants”, saying 14 such cases had been reported between January 2010 and March 2013 alone.

    Israeli soldiers had used Palestinian children to enter potentially dangerous buildings before them and to stand in front of military vehicles to deter stone-throwing, it said.

    “Almost all those using children as human shields and informants have remained unpunished and the soldiers convicted for having forced at gunpoint a nine-year-old child to search bags suspected of containing explosives only received a suspended sentence of three months and were demoted,” it said.

    Israel’s “illegal long-standing occupation” of Palestinian territory and the Golan Heights, continued expansion of “unlawful” Jewish settlements, construction of the separation fence into the West Bank, land confiscation and destruction of homes and livelihoods “constitute severe and continuous violations of the rights of Palestinian children and their families”, it said.

    Israel disputes the international position that its settlements in the West Bank are illegal. It says the wall it built there during the uprising stopped Palestinian suicide bombers from reaching its cities.

    In March, Palmor, the Foreign Ministry spokesman, had said that officials from the ministry and the military had cooperated with UNICEF in its work on the report, with the goal of improving the treatment of Palestinian minors in custody.

    “Israel will study the conclusions and will work to implement them through ongoing cooperation with UNICEF, whose work we value and respect,” he said, in response to the UNICEF report.

    • Why is the UN an authority that should matter to anybody, Rana? It’s a real question. I’m very curious to read your answer.

          • The UN represents world opinion and legitimacy. Are you saying that the UN resolution originally recognising Israel should now be ignored by everyone?

            • I’m not the one saying it. You and the ilk you represent are saying that. International Law conferred legitimacy on Israel from the very first moment of its inception. It came into being through a series of International agreements and Laws. Yet somehow it matters not one little bit to you and your ilk. You still speak as if Israel needs legitimacy conferred upon it. Make up your mind or just admit that as far as you are concerned, International Law is really just a function of public opinion, based on caprice and self-interest. And therefore, ignorable. If you do not hold this position then stop talking about Israel’s needing “legitimacy” from such a source. You sound like some old reactionaries when they talk about the “illegitimacy” of kids born out of wedlock.

    • Thanks Ken.
      Rana, this story is not surprising.
      War is terrible.
      We have had over 80 years of conflict.
      If it was any other nation you would have been long gone.
      I’d like to remind you how the Spanish and Portuguese treated the Arabs and Jews during the Inquisition. How the Crusaders killed Jerusalem’s Muslim Kurds and Jews standing in their way.
      So you say it is long ago and things have changed?
      I’d like to remind how the British and Americans blasted Dresden.
      The pilots’ testimony was astonishing: “The Dresden trip took 12 hours. On this trip, I could still see the fires 500 miles away from Dresden.”.

      But you will say this was during WW2 and the Germans deserved it?

      Well, what about this one?,485743

      Point I’m making is that all in all the Israelis with all their might attempt to avoid families.
      Yes, you can give me examples of this and that but deep inside you can compare this to other wars and you can see a big difference.

  17. rana mirza.
    The UN is objective, the Pope is Jewish and pigs can fly
    MARCH 19, 2013

    This week I took the official tour of the UN headquarters in New York. I noticed that next to every “pro-Jewish” item in the iconic building, there is something to counterbalance it. Thus, adjacent to Chagall’s stunning stained glass window in the lobby there is a statue of Count Folke Bernadotte, a UN official who was killed by members of the Jewish underground group Lehi in Jerusalem during the War of Independence. Next to a small display on the Holocaust there is a huge exhibition on “Palestine.”

    I attended a session run by the Israeli delegation at the UN. Danielle Brown, an articulate former Canadian who made Aliya, served in the IDF, and graduated from IDC ran the briefing. She was an advisor to Ambassador Ron Prosor. Brown noted how traditionally Israel used to be “bullied” in the UN and was always on the defensive.

    Israel has however radically changed its tactics and has gone on the offensive. Now other ambassadors are hesitant to criticise Israel, because each time that an Arab representative gets up to speak of alleged humanitarian violations in Israel, the Israeli representative gets right back up and speaks of actual humanitarian violations, and hypocrisy in that country.

    The official tour of the UN building was highly revealing regarding the UN policy of “balance” and fair play. The UN guide led me through the General Assembly room, complete with its “Palestine” “country sign,” during a session.

    I was then led to a floor with a display of the results of violence. Some of the highlights included exhibits on landmines, nuclear conflict, and a small display on the Holocaust. The official UN guide did not mention the Holocaust exhibition, but did stop at the display titled “Palestine.” I asked her why she did not talk about the Holocaust exhibition, and she answered that it was “too controversial.” This did not stop her, and every other guide stopping and explaining the “Palestine” exhibition. This large display, on a bright orange background was full of half-truths and misconceptions. It was nothing less than crude Palestinian propaganda, which was lent a veneer of legitimacy by being part of the official UN tour.

    When I started to point out some of factual inconsistencies, the guide cut me off and hurried on with the tour. Some of the gems were:

    Of the two States to be created under resolution 181 (ii), only one, Israel, has so far come into being as an independent and sovereign State.
    This neglects to mention that the Palestinian Arabs, and indeed the entire Arab world, rejected the UN partition plan and tried to annihilate the nascent Jewish State through force of arms. If they would have accepted, as the Palestinian Jews did. there would be no Arab Israel conflict.

    In 1948, as a result of the war between Israel and neighbouring Arab states, almost 750,000 Palestinians were uprooted and became refugees.
    This fails to contextualise that the “war between Israel and her neighbouring Arab States” was one of self-defense by the Jews after an unprovoked combined Arab armies attack whose sole purpose was to wipe Israel off the map. The majority of Arab refugees, whose numbers are vastly inflated, left without ever seeing an Israeli soldier, in order to facilitate the Arab armies in “finishing their job.” There is no mention of the 830,000 Jewish refugees from Arab lands, some who had been there for thousands of years, who left everything behind.

    No other entity or trouble spot in the world had a place on the UN tour (not even Syria, where over seventy thousand civilians have been killed in two years of civil wars). This would seem to indicate a clear bias against Israel, that bastion of democracy and human rights in the despotic Middle East.

    So much for balance and objectivity.

  18. rana mirza.
    State of Israel Does Not Appear on a UN Map of the Holy Land
    By Yaffa Goldstein
    Mar 1 2001
    UNRWA Displays Map Where Israel is Palestine
    UNRWA event displays a map that encourages the delegitimization of Israel by labeling all of Israel as Arab Palestine
    May 23, 2013

    What the U.N teaches in Gaza.
    Learn about Islam, Jihad, martyrdom – at UNRWA schools (updated)
    July 4, 2012

  19. Ken stop talking to Abbas even his own people do not like him so credit him to be Isaraeli plant. What do you think?

  20. Oh, but you don’t understand! It is immoral, illegal and utterly incomprehensible that a Jew kill a non-Jew. Any this this happens, it is always “murder”. If a Jew kills an Arab, it is “genocide”, but if an Arab kill 100 other Arabs, this we don’t mention. Jews are supposed to be eternally subservient to non-Jews. After all, this has been the case for thousands of years, and so boggles the mind of the run-of-the-mill antisemitic racist when it is proven to be otherwise. Jews are by definition considered Personae non-Grata in “civilized” and “enlightened” genteel society. This is traditional and Jews are expected to know their proper place and behave like sheep going off the the slaughter. Anything else is simply unthinkable.

    • Eyal: I have Jewish friends and acquaintances here in the UK. As far as I am concerned, we all exist on an equal basis. I do not deny that some of what you have said was correct historically and I understand why you and others may feel bitterness.
      But you should not take out your bitterness on others. In the end, if you allow those historic individuals and movements who have behaved so appallingly towards not just Jews but many other groups among humankind to keep you feeling bitter, this means they continue to win against you. After World War Two, we in the UK adopted a slogan “Forgive – but never forget”. I am sure something similar probably exists in the Talmud as wiser people than us realised that harbouring bitterness and resentment can only stain our own minds for ever – if we let it. It is over – let it go.

      • I beg to differ, John. You say what you say from the comfort of your sweet and protected life in the UK (but watch your backside, because Islamic Sharia law is coming to town). You have absolutely no idea what it feels like to have 10 seconds to reach your bomb shelter. You have no idea whatsoever what it feels like to live under the threat of annihilation.

        True, there were other groups of people in the world who were subjected to racist hate and genocide. But no other people were subjected to the systematic, industrial scale elimination process that Jews were subjected to in the Holocaust, while being classified as sub-human vermin. The Jewish people were subjected to the most horrific, systematic genocide in the history of mankind, somehow managed to survive and create a thriving state in Israel, only to find themselves as the only nation in the world today living under a real and viable threat of extermination.

        So, John, it is not a matter of forgiving and forgetting anything. As far as I’m concerned, the Holocaust happened yesterday, and another one is planned for us tomorrow. If I am bitter about anything, it is about the hypocritical, self-righteous, holier-than-thou European ignorant-as-a-plank bigots, who in their unbelievable chutzpah dare to dictate to Israel that it must further endanger itself, because this is what they consider these days to be the politically correct thing to do. From my point of view, the Europeans of yesterday either took part in the Holocaust, did nothing to stop it, and/or refused to allow the Jews a refuge (check what the UK did to Holocaust refugees). The Europeans of today, the sons and daughters of those aforementioned, now pressure Israel (out of total naive ignorance or pure evil antisemitism – you choose) to deliberately put itself in harm’s way. As far as I’m concerned, today’s Europeans are the same as yesterday’s, still considering the Jewish people as mankind’s major problem and stupidly looking forward to the vision of a world of harmony between peoples and nations, which will arrive when those meddling Jews are put in their right and proper place.

        • Europeans are the same as yesterday’s, still considering the Jewish people as mankind’s major problem and stupidly looking forward to the vision of a world of harmony between peoples and nations, which will arrive when those meddling Jews are put in their right and proper place.

          And you talk of “naive ignorance”?

          • As far as I’m concerned, today’s Europeans are the same as yesterday’s,…
            They are far worse Eyal, because they diddn’t learn anything from their own history.

            • What Eyal said certainly doesn’t apply to me.
              You’re European yourself, peter. Speak for yourself.

              • I’m an Israeli and not an European. I didn’t call you a Holocaust denier.
                Everything else in your post may be correct (or not)

                • I didn’t call you a Holocaust denier.

                  Now you’re even lying about it.

                  Do you not even have the deceny to admit it?
                  (let alone apologise for it)

            • And why are you still posting here after calling me a Holocaust denier?

              Do you know no shame?

            • Peter: you are wrong. Even at a time of extreme austerity across Europe, the far right receives little electoral support.
              You have to remember that we in Europe have not forgotten the circumstances under which two massive wars arose and the consequences of those wars.
              It is glib to cite the Hegel or Shaw line that “We learn from history that we learn nothing from history” but that – too – is incorrect.
              We have learned from history.
              Many Europeans say “Never again” – and who can blame them?
              Many Israelis say “Never again” – and who can blame them?

              • John D in your book anti-semitism can be found only in far-right circles!?
                Thank you for your extremely informative contribution….

        • Eyal: I was born in February 1945. The last Nazi V2 weapons were fired at England – resulting in death for an elderly woman – in late March 1945. Obviously, I do not remember the actual events of the V1s and V2s landing in London (where I was born and lived) but it may be possible I retain some subliminal memories.
          In 1962, I was 17 years of age. Again, I do not really remember much now about the Cuban missile crisis but that was an event which threatened to destroy the entire world if all-out nuclear war had been triggered between the USA and the former Soviet Union. This would have happened even in the ‘sweet and protected UK’ had not the calibre of politicians such as Kennedy and Khruschev not been in existence at the time. I forgive but I do not forget.
          The British themselves presided over the Great Potato Famine in Ireland, which resulted in the deaths of around 2 million Irish men and women, which probably explains why my ancestors migrated to Scotland, initially, and then on to England.
          The population of Ireland has only recently recovered to the same level as it was before the onset of the potato blight. I forgive but I do not forget.
          In India, under the British Raj, many more millions were allowed to starve to death because of an inflicted famine, with food shipments continuing out of the country at the same time. I forgive but I do not forget.
          The truth is that humankind has an appalling historic record but the recent publication by Steven Pinker “The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined.” is a testimony to the more civilized nature of modern humankind.
          I am not bothered about home-grown Muslims. Many of the ones I know are just like their counterparts in other parts of the world: all they want is to be left alone to live ordinary lives for themselves and their families. They are no different to you and all other Israelis – are they?
          One real problem I do foresee is the failure of the so-called Arab Spring, which seems to be degenerating into an all-out Sunni-Shia war, mainly on a proxy basis in places like Syria. Your politicians would do well to keep any involvement by Israel in these events to an absolute minimum. Let the others get on with it without any Israeli involvement whatsoever, is my advice.
          They should also be doing absolutely everything in their power to achieve an acceptable outcome to the peace talks currently taking place in America. In all seriousness, I say to you that this has to be the last possible chance for a peaceable outcome between Israelis and Palestinians. If this chance is lost, there may never be another one. Do not let this opportunity slip through your hands.
          For most of the rest of the world, Israel is a nondescript little country in a nondescript part of the world. Nothing of much significance takes place there. You should be happy about this. If you can just resolve matters with the Palestinians on an equitable basis then there will be no further need to have bomb shelters any more.
          I don’t think I am being naïve in saying what I say.
          Former implacable foes France and Germany live peacefully alongside one another.
          If they can achieve this, why not Israel and Palestine?
          Read: and think about setting up an Israeli Humanists branch of the International Humanist and Ethical Union.

          • Asevery ns moron you deny any importance of Israel, but here you are.
            Well, Ns trolls cannot master logic, that`s for sure, `cause of obsessive stupidity.

            • Poor Fritz: your latest incoherent ungrammatical misspelled submission appears to confirm that the effects of your brain dying in 1966 is finally manifesting itself for all to see. Time for your final rites, I think, so you may be at rest – you need it – badly.

        • Classic it may be but that is how it is. I have travelled inside Israel and the West Bank with Jewish and non-Jewish friends and their perspective on events on the ground was extremely useful for me. When I was a very young boy, I remember someone – an older boy – telling me a “Jewish” joke. I did not understand the joke, principally because at that time no one I knew was Jewish but – more particularly – it struck me that I had heard similar “jokes” about Irish people, Scots people and other groups. Later on, I realised that these “jokes” were part of an imperialistic culture which sought to emphasise negative nationalist stereotypes at the expense of other nationalist stereotypes. Since then – and as a humanist – I have adopted a life stance in which all human beings are essentially the same – with a very few exceptions – with divisive factors such as religion being obviously responsible for many of the great evils in our human history. Get rid of it all, I say !! I remember the final broadcast from Budapest in 1956 – an absolutely tragic occasion so I further understand that extremist political ideology and violence are equally detestable for all of us humans. I am capable of seeing things through more than just one lense.

          • Get rid of it all? Get rid of religion? The problem with those who call themselves “humanists” is that their wishful thinking and unrealistic approach to life is exactly what religious extremists rely on for protection. So-called “humanists” are the extremists’ best friends and accomplices. These can incite hate and violence, under the cover of the liberal values of free speech, they can evade almost all forms of restraint because these are considered “racism”, and so on and so forth.

            Humans are all born the same, but very early on in life they are imbued with the values of the culture they were born into, and that’s it. There’s no going back after that. So-called “Palestinian” (there is no such nationality) children are taught that Jews are descended from pigs and monkeys, as written in the Koran. They are also taught that it is good to die, good to commit suicide if it means that you manage to take a few Jews along with you. They are taught this almost as soon as they can talk, and then similarly brainwashed throughout their youth and into adulthood. You don’t believe me? If so, I’m not surprised.

            Your “humanism” is a weakness which will be your downfall. It will be the downfall of Europe and possibly all of Western civilization within a few generations. It doesn’t hold water and has no foothold in reality. As a wise Roman once said – Those who wish for peace should prepare for war. Liberal culture that insists on being blind to reality, is actually guaranteeing its own demise and replacement by extremist fascism.

            • Eyal: your reflections are very interesting. The Roman you cited was, of course, an early European – yet you take the lesson from him, as do I and all other Europeans. After all, Europe has been exposed to mass slaughter on an unimaginable scale over millennia, has it not? Do you really think we would forget that?
              I am no peace-at-any-cost individual. It was right that we stood alone in Britain at one time against the massively superior Nazi war machine. We suffered greatly during that period. Many of us – myself included – lost family members and relations.
              However, it does no one any good to keep dwelling on the past. There comes a time when we all have to learn to trust one another a little bit and try to live with one another. Even getting married can be a bit like that too, can it not?
              The Nazis were an utterly bizarre phenomenon for Europe. Nothing like them has ever been seen since. That does not mean we assume it could never occur again. That way lies definite ruin – we all know that. But, as I have said before, we have all learned lessons from the Nazis which will never be forgotten – especially in Germany.
              The Palestinian children I have met are more interested in football – though why they would want to support Real Madrid beats me! The young girls all love playing with dolls and dressing in pink dresses. Sound familiar? It should, because I am sure there are young Israeli children behaving in exactly the same way. We owe it to the children to create a world in which they can live peacefully alongside one another.
              They may even, in time, become good friends and even form relationships with one another too. After all, we are all united by a common human genetic pool.
              Hate breeds hate. Like the situation in Northern Ireland, it is hard to go back in time and unravel the whole sordid saga. Sometime, we just have to cut the Gordian knot and start afresh at a moment in time. There can be no other way. What is needed is a Mandela moment, someone with the courage, generosity and magnanimity to extend the hand of friendship and love to former foes. It is difficult – but not impossible – to achieve. I hope something like this will come out of the peace talks currently taking place in the USA for your sake and more importantly for the sake of your children and their children. Whether or not the Israeli side and/or the Palestinian side has a Mandela to achieve this outcome will just have to be seen.
              I intend to carry out research into the European Jewish Enlightenment at some future stage, as I would like to trace this input into the overall ethos of the European Enlightenment movement. I am sure the Jewish intellectual contribution was substantial. If so, then your concerns about humanist weakness may be partly due to Jewish intellectuals contributing their thinking towards the project – yet I believe you are probably not right. We all – even in Israel and Palestine – live in a kinder and gentler world than any we have ever lived in before. I am – of course – ignoring Syria when I say this as situations like that have regrettably to play themselves out from time to time in history. It is my belief that in the long run the Muslims will cease pursuing impossible goals and will start to embrace humanist ideals too.
              Ultimately, the world will leave the superstition and dogma of religion behind.
              I cannot tell you when this will happen but it is – I believe – inevitable.

        • Absolutely classic. I’m sure he doesn’t even realise what a stereotype he is.

          I’m sure you also noticed how he kept changing his story regarding the origins of the term “anti-Semitism”–hoping we wouldn’t notice that he gave the wrong date and city.

          I guess he’s trying to “blind us with science” (in this case Wikipedia citations). What he doesn’t realise is that we’ve seen his tactics too many times before.

          • cba: here is the real difference between us – you use a fake name and I use a real name. What does that say about your intellectual honesty and stereotype?

              • OK – cba – you got me! My mistake. I thought I was on another blog where my name is shown in full – John Dowdle. Let’s call it a draw – OK?

              • Sorry – Peter. Now I really am getting confused, answering so many other people’s comments. All part of the “rich tapestry of life”, as the saying goes.

    • @ Eyal

      Jews are by definition considered Personae non-Grata in “civilized” and “enlightened” genteel society.

      Sadly that is indeed the case in certain circles. But surely you’re over-generalising …

  21. Rafi Mirza says,
    Ken stop talking to Abbas even his own people do not like him so credit him to be Isaraeli plant. What do you think?

    I hear the Mossad Shark, Mossad Vulture and Mossad bird were also plants of Israel.
    What do you think?
    Rafi enjoys leaders like Arafat who stole billions from his people while Arafat was a billionaire.

    Rafi also enjoys Hamas leaders who kill any Palestinian who’s a rival of Hamas.
    Hamas victim dragged through the streets of Gaza City Tuesday by motorcycle was no collaborator, widow says
    It was a sight that shocked the world — the corpse of Ribhi Badawi being dragged through the streets of Gaza City Tuesday by a motorcycle as Hamas gunmen fired into the air.
    Comments (26)
    Matthew Kalman
    NOVEMBER 26, 2012

  22. John D writes: “This has to be one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever seen. No European holds the Jews responsible for the holocaust.”

    And I respond to him by quoting his exact words: ” What an utterly stupid statement to make.”

    One of the bigot’s dead giveaway “tells” is their terminal deficiency of irony. They just don’t get it. And there is nothing pleasant about attempting to explain irony to a bigot. Like trying to explain the colour red to a colour-blind person.

    John’s response illustrates how he can only refer to Jews in terms of blame and exculpation. Like Jews need him to exonerate of the imaginary crimes he attributes to them.

    I provided the key to understanding the saying: “‘It’s very hard for Europe to forgive the Jews for the Holocaust….” In the quote I brought from Norm Geras.
    “Here is what can sometimes happen: one person wrongs another and doesn’t know how to come back from that. So they deepen the wrong. They add further or worse misdemeanours, falsehoods, calumnies or what have you to the original one. This is the dynamic: to reinforce the thought that the first wrong wasn’t one, anything which might diminish its recipient helps the offending party convince him or herself that the other must be a bad person, so that the first offence against them was somehow deserved. The deepening process is itself the symptom of a moral discomfort that cannot be squarely faced.” (Norm Geras)

    And here is Christopher Caldwell (Weekly Standard, June 5, 2002) with the same thought, writ large:

    ““For anyone who inhabits Western culture, the Holocaust made that culture a much more painful place to inhabit – and for any reasonably moral person, greatly narrowed the range of acceptable political behaviour. To be human is to wish it had never happened. (Those who deny that it did may be those can’t bear to admit it happened,) but it did. If there is a will-to anti-Semitism – then the Arab style Judeophobia, which is an anti-Semitism without the West’s complexes, offers a real redemptive project to those Westerners who are willing to embrace. It can liberate guilty, decadent Europeans from a horrible moral albatross. What an anti-depressant! Saying there was no such thing as the gas chamber is, of course, not respectable. But the same purpose can be served using what Leo Strauss called the reductio ad Hitlerum to cast the Jews as having committed crimes identical to the Nazis’. They must be identical, of course, so the work of self-delusion can be accomplished. We did one, the Jews did one. Now we’re even-steven”.

    Of course, the only consolation in this scenario is that nobody can stay in this state of blithe denial interminably. It is unsustainable. That is, unless we speak of pathologically enfeebled minds resistant to reason and reality, which these comments are not addressed to, anyway. As Tacitus said: It is part of human nature to hate the man you have hurt.

    George Orwell observed the same grotesque reversal in his essay : Antisemitism in Britain:

    “Intelligent woman, on being offered a book dealing with antisemitism and German atrocities: “Don’t show it me, PLEASE don’t show it to me. It’ll only make me hate the Jews more than ever.” ….

    I hope this was helpful.

    • The only person who can possibly have found your comments of any use is you. Just like the author of the article you sent me the hyperlink for, you too are marooned inside a total bubble of deliberate misperception, which is designed to reinforce a false perception of the world, which you are determined to cling on to until the day you die – it seems.
      Why should I feel any sense of personal responsibility for the holocaust?
      It started before I was born and was ended by people like my father who went to Europe fighting the Nazis – and never came back. I was two months old when the war ended. Do you really expect 2-month old babies to feel some sort of personal responsibility for what happened in war-time Europe? Get a grip on reality !!
      I had nothing to do with the slave trade, either – or do you expect me to feel responsible for that too? Should I feel responsible for the deaths of indigenous peoples in the New World? Where will it end for you?
      This idea that Europeans resent the Jews because of the holocaust is so wide of the mark as to be totally absurd. The Nazis were responsible. End of. You cannot advance any form of rational explanation for what they thought and did because they neither thought nor acted rationally. They were an example of mass insanity.
      I have not read any of his works but I attended a talk given by Norman Finkelstein in which he made references to the holocaust “industry”.
      I did not really understand what he was saying at the time but remarks like yours and the ones by the article author are beginning to make it clearer to me.
      You seem to resent anyone else having a view or opinion on the holocaust.
      It is like you think it is exclusive just to one group of people. Well, it is not.
      Many others were also murdered by the Nazis and died fighting them to put a stop to the war and the holocaust – like my father and many other people’s fathers.
      The First World War was also a holocaust of immense proportions and there have been other similar events since 1945. There is nothing unique about mass murder.
      You and your friends need to move on and join with the rest of humankind in opposing any forms of mass murder which may occur now or in the future.
      Sometimes, there is not much we can do about it – look at the mess in Syria – but we should all join in and pressure our governments to give peace a chance

      • Again Mr Dowdle you repeat the ‘touching story’ about your alleged Father “..and was ended by people like my father who went to Europe fighting the Nazis – and never came back”
        Last time I asked you came up with a lot of smoke and mirrors about not knowing any details, but surely you know your own Father’s surname.

        So what was your Father’s surname?
        The reason I ask what your Father’s surname was is that you claimed you were adopted so of course Dowdle could be your adopted surname and not the surname of either of your birth parents.

      • Your own personal story as touching as it is does not have any pertinence here. Is this in any way your personal quest to redeem something about your father? Why is it even a factor in this discussion?

        European guilt over the Holocaust can have many aspects, gradations, and reasons. That’s the problem with this kind of guilt; it is irrational, pervasive and tragically persistent. Jews would have been willing to forget or at least relegate this dark period to a corner, but Europeans are not to be appeased. They must continue the harassment of Jews, in any guise available and convenient for them. Your denial of it is in and of itself a form of admission. Because the case is so very clearly NOT CLOSED. Not to you, that’s for sure.

        I am shocked, shocked that you should be a fan of Finkelstein.

        • Noga: I am not aware of Europeans harassing Jews – at least not where I live, in the UK. Regrettably, where there is nationalism of any kind, there are always attempts to demean the “other”. In America, they have jokes about Poles; in Brasil, they have jokes about Portuguese; in Portugal, they have jokes about Brasilians, etc. etc.
          What is say is not a denial; it is an observation. In England, we have largely put nationalistic ideas behind us. The so-called patron saint of England is a Turk. The flag of England is a red cross on a white background, suggesting we are largely a Christian nation – which we are not. Indeed, we are becoming more and more secular with each passing year – and a good thing to, in my opinion.
          My main concern about the Nazis and their death camps is the effect it had on everyone who entered their charnel gates because – as a decent person – I never want to see anyone go through anything like that ever again. The holocaust was part of an overall death toll for the entire war, estimated at more than 48 million (Source: We must never again see that scale of casualties.
          I disagreed with Finkelstein’s thesis: that a two-state solution was viable. He seemed to think transferring settlers into a revised Israeli border would be relatively unproblematic. I think he did not take into account the settlers in the Jericho Valley or those in places like Ariel, who had already been moved out of Gaza and were clearly determined not to be made to move again.
          Opinion, I believe, is shifting towards a single secular state solution. Palestinians are allowed to work in businesses in Barkan and Ariel but they are not allowed to live there. The same was once true of Nazareth Ilit but Israeli Palestinians now occupy about 20 per cent of the properties in Nazareth Ilit, much to the apparent chagrin of the mayor.
          If Israelis and Palestinians can live side-by-side in Nazareth Ilit, then why not elsewhere in a new combined Israel-Palestine state, including the West Bank?
          You see how I bring the subject back to the future. Living in the past yields little or nothing, though we should never forget the lessons of the past.

              • You nazi already said enough.
                “To return to the original title of this article, the events outlined above prove that the Zionists – in these events – were highly efficient ethnic cleansers – of Hungarian Jews.”
                Kick this nazi out, Adam.

              • From the mind of a “decent person”:

                “Tragically, while the most assimilated, urbane and sophisticated European Jews resisted Zionism, they fell victim to the appalling policies of the Nazis, meaning that among Jews most of the best were lost in the holocaust, leaving only the extremists and most base individual survivalists alive at the end of the war, who were involved in setting up the Zionist state …”

                Let me translate that to those who don’t get the gist of this obscenity: A good Jew is a dead Jew.

                This is what decency looks on John Dowdle.

                • Exactly right, Noga.

                  People like John Dowdle are happy to weep for dead Jews, but they hate it when Jews refuse to fight back instead of going quietly to their deaths.

          • ” I am not aware of Europeans harassing Jews – at least not where I live, in the UK.”

            If you spend your life with your eyes closed and your fingers jammed in your ears then yes it is conceivable that you are not aware of anti-Semitic attacks in the UK and other parts of Europe. There are none so blind as those who do not want to see.

            “The so-called patron saint of England is a Turk.”
            St. George was born in, what was then called, Lydda.
            I’ll leave others to enlighten you where Lydda is, your ignorance is breathtaking.